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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#38901: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:21:42 PM

It seems that we have multiple methods of determining a politician's political positions. deathpigeon is using the method of "this is what the politician accomplished", while others here are using the method of "this is what I can infer are the politician's intentions from 'eir rhetoric", or something like that.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#38902: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:24:06 PM

[up][up][up][up][up][up][up]

You sure?

According to what I found, Vergil Goode (Constitution Party) got .09% of the vote which is more than the Peace and Freedom party got.

edited 7th Nov '12 8:25:11 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#38903: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:28:03 PM

Top Republicans ready to talk tax compromise with President Obama after reelection

edited 7th Nov '12 8:28:17 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#38904: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:28:25 PM

It seems that we have multiple methods of determining a politician's political positions. deathpigeon is using the method of "this is what the politician accomplished", while others here are using the method of "this is what I can infer are the politician's intentions from 'eir rhetoric", or something like that.
I take it from the grounds that Obama's commentary and his general public messages has been that he really really prefer to focus on infrastructure and government renovation, if he wasn't dealing with a completely insane section of congress that seems to treat such things as the work of the great Satan. Therefore, I assume his policy decisions with war have more to do with make some sort of sane continuity from the warmongering Bush administration and political realities, rather than he loves killing.

Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#38905: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:28:52 PM

@dp: But his actions have been severely limited due to republicans in congress, which means if he actually had his way, I would be able to get you to assume the opposite. Tell me, if he had been able to get the public option/national healthcare/an actual healthcare system through (which he fully supported, if you remember, but had to make due with republican bullshit and accept a policy that would least save lives by forcing insurance companies to actually accept people with pre-existing conditions) that you wouldn't think differently.

edited 7th Nov '12 8:32:03 PM by Ekuran

Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#38906: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:29:12 PM

[up][up][up]

Top Non Tea Party Republicans I imagine.

edited 7th Nov '12 8:29:21 PM by Thorn14

GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#38907: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:30:35 PM

> Republicans willing to talk about tax deal after election

This is like, completely in line with everyone's predictions. After the reason for posing for their base has passed, they get to actually do something useful for a change.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#38908: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:32:21 PM

Stories like that one (which I linked earlier from a different source) really remind me that if there is one person I'd like to go back in time and turn into a radish, it would be Grover Norquist.

[up] Indeed. The election proves (or should prove) that their obstructionist policy has largely failed to resonate with voters and, more importantly, they will be blamed for the fiscal cliff.

edited 7th Nov '12 8:33:21 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#38909: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:32:55 PM

It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Grover Norquist is a jackass.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#38910: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:33:16 PM

[up][up][up][up]

True. But the Tea Party took a beating this election.

edited 7th Nov '12 8:33:36 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#38911: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:33:33 PM

@Glenn: I'm going off of his actions, not accomplishments. For example, his entire foreign policy is straight out of the neocon handbook, despite his rhetoric saying otherwise. The healthcare law he made and pushed through was conservative even before he made compromises with it. He has followed a policy of austerity, even in his rhetoric, to a lesser extent. He is in favor of the death penalty. While being in support of gay marriage, he chooses to leave it up to the states, which is basically dooming the majority of gay couples to not being able to get married, a bad idea, and a pretty conservative idea.

@Braeburn: From what I saw (which was The Other Wiki, so not necessarily accurate), Virgil Goode got .003%.

@Ekuran: Not his foreign policy. Plus, Obamacare had it's origins in conservatism as he pulled it right out of a conservative think tank. Plus, his support for austerity appears to only be because of Congress in part since he supported it back when he had control of Congress. Also, when did he support public option healthcare?

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#38912: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:35:37 PM

[up]

Neo-cons aren't really conservatives. And respecting state right isn't solely a Conservative outlook either.

edited 7th Nov '12 8:37:10 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#38913: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:35:47 PM

[up][up][up]

Enough for non tea party republicans to stand up to them?

edited 7th Nov '12 8:35:57 PM by Thorn14

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#38914: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:36:43 PM

@deathpigeon: I don't disagree with your factual assessments; however, I would argue that the state of American politics is such that it would have been impossible for someone farther left than Obama to function as President in 2009-2013.

Maybe in this next cycle Obama will be able to let a bit more of the liberal loose; if nothing else, Latino groups are going to hold his feet to the fire over immigration reform.

edited 7th Nov '12 8:37:56 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
terlwyth Since: Oct, 2010
#38915: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:36:48 PM

Neo Cons and libertarians still have the very same bootstraps notion going on,and a hatred for social programs

Reagan Dems don't have that,and they mostly faded away. The Blue Dogs are about as close as you can get to anti-libertarians around here.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#38916: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:38:48 PM

Nevermind, I rechecked The Other Wiki, and oode did indeed get .09%, beating out Barr.

@Braeburn: They are sort of conservatives. Also, States Rights is definitely a much more conservative than liberal outlook.

@Fighteer: ...I sort of agree, and I'm saddened by that.

GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#38917: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:40:09 PM

@ Fighteer: Unfortunatel, deathpigeon seems to believe in absolute positions regardless of political/cultural contexts. Which I disagree with since that would basically mean not supporting progress for the sake of stubborn principle.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#38918: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:41:31 PM

You keep saying he's for austerity without really backing that up. That's... not what I'm seeing Obama do when he's urging for things like higher taxes on those earning more than 250k.

GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#38919: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:44:55 PM

I think he's talking about Obama's talking about cutting government spending, regardless of his position on taxes.

edited 7th Nov '12 8:45:10 PM by GlennMagusHarvey

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#38920: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:46:33 PM

Well, as much I support social welfare, there are some places where cutting government spending is a wise idea. It's not like money is infinite, after all.

But yeah, that alone doesn't make someone a fan of austerity.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#38921: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:47:49 PM

@Hilarity: ...I question anyone who says that we should use a different political compass for different countries. We should judge everyone by the same metric. If we don't, it prevents any comparison between people of different nations in this regard, and causes confusion when talking to people of different nations. Also, it honestly makes no sense to me.

@Ace: Austerity is the policy of reducing the deficit and the debt by cutting spending. If anything, higher taxes would be seen as good, when seen through the lens of austerity. He has been attempting to cut spending, and, when pressed, given the reduction of deficit/debt as the reasoning.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#38922: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:48:21 PM

Obama does not support austerity. He's been forced to negotiate away positions that resulted in de facto austerity, such as cuts in aid to states that resulted in public layoffs. But his jobs package this year (which died in Congress) would have restored a big chunk of that funding. He is no austerity-hawk, that much I am certain.

The problem is that his economic advisers were picked with an eye to appeasing Wall Street concerns that he'd be a hardcore economic liberal, and as such he ignored or discarded as unworkable true Keynesian principles like massive stimulus and ignoring the debt in a recession.

There's no gain to Obama or to liberal politics by proposing a bunch of economic solutions that are inevitably going to fail in Congress and that the media (both right wing and center) will use to paint him as a crazy liberal debt-raiser.

In an ideal world, I'd be screaming "Paul Krugman for President"... or at least Secretary of the Treasury or Fed Chairman or something nerdier than the Oval Office. Hopefully he'll at least be invited to the table in 2013, now that Obama has officially been dumped by Wall Street.

edited 7th Nov '12 8:50:01 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#38923: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:50:36 PM

And that's why I think a Sense Motive check is a better determinator of political positions than a "look at 'eir actions/accomplishments".

Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#38924: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:52:13 PM

Some cuts need to be made, theres no going around it.

But Republicans refuse to accept that revenue also has to be made as well.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#38925: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:52:26 PM

Everything is contextual, death. If you obscure this, you don't learn why certain things operate in certain places. Not to mention, if you don't use context it makes it harder for people to understand you.

But yeah, going with Fighteer on this one. Obama is not a strong supporter of austerity, and it seems ridiculous to claim that he is.


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