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Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#36076: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:09:38 PM

They're nothing alike at all.

Self-Defense is when you're actually there trying to stop someone from hurting/killing another.

Drone Strikes are not in any way a defensive action and cannot be declared that. Without using a severe perversion of the term "self-defense". They're a fully offensive action.

Likewise, for that case(Martin VS Zimmerman), the topic has been locked for a long time. If one wants to talk more about it, a request could be made to open it. Either way, this is quite an unrelated topic. I'm sure another more appropriate one can be found/made instead of discussing it here.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:10:16 PM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
terlwyth Since: Oct, 2010
#36077: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:10:41 PM

Shoot to disarm,if you can. Don't kill if you don't have to

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#36078: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:12:27 PM

[up]

Shooting to disarm rarely ever works.

If an intruder breaks into my home, I should have the right to put a piece of lead into his head.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:13:17 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
#36079: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:14:50 PM

Shooting to disarm is, from what I've been told by people who know about such things, more likely to make the target die a slower, more painful death than to actually lead to an easy resolution of the situation.

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Swish Long Live the King Since: Jan, 2001
Long Live the King
#36080: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:16:52 PM

[up][up][up]There is no such thing as "shoot to disarm". It's "shoot to stop", or do not shoot at all. Aim center mass to ensure you hit, and you put enough rounds into the person to stop them. And if they die, they die.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#36081: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:19:12 PM

@Serrocco: ...That's an incredibly bad comparison. There is a difference between sending drones at terrorists and shooting someone who has a gun to your head.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:20:55 PM by deathpigeon

terlwyth Since: Oct, 2010
#36082: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:20:02 PM

Like I said,if I can.

Now enough of this,this fits better under another thread such as the case itself or the guns thread. Not here.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:20:44 PM by terlwyth

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#36083: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:27:21 PM

A family mourning at a funeral before a drone drops a bomb on their head. That's what you call a terrorist? Obama and Romney certainly do. Hence the Disposition Matrix.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:27:43 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#36085: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:32:06 PM

[up][up] Honestly, that's not going to change even if a third party candidate got elected.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:32:14 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#36086: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:33:13 PM

And that has absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying. :/ I'm against drone strikes too.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#36087: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:33:58 PM

Deviant: "Escalation of violence" would mean you do not have reason to believe the assailant is using lethal force. If I have my fist and I'm gonna break your nose, you don't suddenly get the right to blow my head off.

Maybe if I'm brandishing a knife or something (that's more of an edge case). But the bottom line is that your right to be secure in your person does not supersede the assailants right to live. No, not even if he's stealing your TV.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:34:41 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#36088: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:34:04 PM

[up]

Its my TV.

He/She declared there life forfeit when they went into my house to steal my stuff.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:36:37 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#36089: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:37:01 PM

@Tomu: Actually, if it's dark and someone breaks into my house, I am allowed to use lethal force, simply because I can't safely assume that the burglar is unarmed.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#36090: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:37:36 PM

Ha ha ha no. Your property rights don't supersede the right to life of other people. You don't get to decide just how much you're allowed to take in return for your stuff. That's why we're a nation of laws, rather than vicious vagabonds.

[up] Varies from region to region. I'm talking about a situation where you can reasonably come to the conclusion that your life is NOT in immediate danger.

Honestly, it seems like a decidedly American sentiment; in America, there seems to be a "they broke the rules (where "the rules" can be defined as the law or whatever other code) therefore we don't care about them." Part of why our criminal justice system is so fucked up, but also relates to why people don't see aggravated self defense (so to speak) as at all problematic. It's the "we don't have to care about this person anymore" button.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:42:06 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#36091: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:41:02 PM

@Tomu: Even so, most self-defense laws provide protection for harming an assailant, even if you're unarmed.

In states that have duty to retreat laws, you can technically be charged for assault if you defend yourself, even if the assailant doesn't die from it.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:43:39 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#36092: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:43:20 PM

Well, there's two issues: what the law is, and what the law reasonably should be.

If we, as a society, consider violence to be bad mmmkay, then presumably escalating violence is not considered okay. That doesn't necessarily mean that a person who fights back without escalating the level of violence should be considered to be doing something wrong. Though in general, I suspect that a duty to retreat reduces the overall level of violence, and is therefore a superior situation.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:44:25 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#36093: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:44:17 PM

Also, Castle Doctrine and Stand-Your-Ground laws usually have provisions regarding undue use of force, so yes you can get charged for shooting someone that punches you.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#36094: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:44:43 PM

That's kind of my point. That's what I mean by "escalation of violence."

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#36095: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:44:46 PM

Honestly the hurricane proves that the electoral college will still have a use. Despite many people probably being unable to vote, these states will still count for as many electoral votes as they usually do.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#36096: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:45:07 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]

What's the point of being a nation of laws if the laws can't protect my stuff.

I frigging hate laws that favor the criminal over the victim.

In states that have duty to retreat laws, you can technically be charged for assault if you defend yourself, even if the assailant doesn't die from it.

F*cking Duty to retreat.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:45:41 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#36097: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:45:49 PM

So, Obama can lose the popular vote, win the electoral college, and it won't seem like 2000 all over again, because we can understand why he lost the popular vote (possibly by a wide margin even).

#36098: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:46:01 PM

Under no circumstance is killing the intruder "taking something in exchange for your stuff". There's no equivalence: there loss in no way compensates your loss. You are stopping your stuff from being taken without your consent. You have the right to use whatever level of force is necessary to do so, with an additional allowance for safety as you are not expected to risk yourself for the sake of a criminal. The situation of a hostile intruder in your home at night is one in which lethal force without warning is justified, because there is often no way for you to assure yourself that the intruder is not armed,, and more importantly there is no way for a court of law to fairly determine whether you could have so assured yourself. Trespassers in broad daylight, on the other hand, deserve a warning under all but the most extreme of circumstances, simply because of the strong likelihood of an honest mistake in that situation.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:46:25 PM by EdwardsGrizzly

<><
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#36099: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:47:42 PM

Grizzly: we're talking about hypotheticals, where we know that using lethal force is an escalation of violence. Bringing up situations that don't meet that hypothetical is missing the point entirely.

More to the point however, if someone steals your TV and they are running away from your house, you do not have the right to shoot them in the back to get your TV back.

There are those that disagree, BTW, which is why I'm bringing up; the notion of the rule of law means that you don't give up all of your protections under the rule of law just because you violated part of that law.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:49:19 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

#36100: Oct 30th 2012 at 8:48:30 PM

My point is that most if not all of the situations these laws apply to don't meet your hypothetical.

if someone steals your TV and they are running away from your house, you do not have the right to shoot them in the back to get your TV back.

I honestly believe that you do.

Although I suppose a case could be made for the Hammurabi system: require the government to compensate all victims of theft under its jurisdiction for the full amount of their loss, and leave it up to the government to recover the stolen property and prevent future thefts.

Unfortunately that doesn't work well without a taxation system that avoids passing the cost directly back to the people.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:53:00 PM by EdwardsGrizzly

<><

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