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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#35351: Oct 26th 2012 at 7:59:18 AM

@Edwards Grizzly: Babies are not always a gift to the woman forced to bear them. This is the point your morality misses. God is, quite frankly, irrelevant in the matter as his "mysterious ways" are subject to interpretation. But let's not have an abortion derail; we've already established that you agree with the principles Mourdock espouses and which most of us here decry.

edited 26th Oct '12 8:09:36 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#35352: Oct 26th 2012 at 7:59:57 AM

Also, not everyone agrees that every baby is a gift from God.

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#35353: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:01:29 AM

[up]

That. personally, one of the main reasons I'm no longer christian is the God that the religion espouses seems like one hell of a dick and I cant really comprehend why people would claim he is "love"

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#35354: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:01:37 AM

Also, even if they were "gifts", that doesn't mean that everyone should be forced to accept them.

I've thrown away gifts before, because they're what I didn't want, or they were offensive, or various other reasons.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#35355: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:01:50 AM

Let's get off this discussion about the morality of abortion. Abortion is probably the only political topic that will never change any minds through debate.

New polls. Romney's surge has ended and Obama is gaining in polls.

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#35356: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:03:16 AM

The idea that "every baby is a gift from God" does not really conflict with the idea that one needs to keep the separation of church and state...

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#35357: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:10:11 AM

[up]Well, not as long as you don't pass legislation based on it, yes. After all, legislation based purely on one group's faith is never going to be fair to the whole population, as it, by definition, won't be a mean consensus.

edited 26th Oct '12 8:10:21 AM by Euodiachloris

#35358: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:10:19 AM

I'm fully aware that virtually everyone except me in this thread is unwilling to grant personhood to an unborn child, and that nothing I can say will change that. What I am trying to do is get you to just consider for once that maybe these conservatives actually do consider the unborn to be people, and that if you considered that baby to be a person, and had any morality at all, you would also not have to be a rape-trivializing woman hater to have serious issues with abortion.

These people, or at least virtually all that I have seen, are not trivializing rape. They are refusing to trivialize the life of a person who is both helpless and innocent. I'm not asking you to become pro-life, I'm asking you to stop willfully refusing to understand what pro-life people actually believe.

<><
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#35359: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:11:33 AM

[up]

I unberstand what they believe. I just also feel that theyre unintentionally ignoring the life and emotions of the woman because of a fetus theyll stop giving a shit about the second its born.

Sue me. I'm a horrendously cynical person. And its my own personal belief that pro-lifers arent evil. Just unwilling to think out the implications of their actions, or rather, simply dont give two shits because they live in a mental world where every woman eventually comes to love their baby and where a powerful church and family related social safety net always exists.

Neither of those exist for every woman, so they come off as deluded idealists living in a world that doesnt and hasnt ever existed and never will exist.

edited 26th Oct '12 8:13:40 AM by Midgetsnowman

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#35360: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:11:49 AM

[up][up]I also accept that a living person who is actually breathing, has personal experiences and is currently carrying the baby is... also a person with person-hood. The rights of the child are important... but so are the rights of the mother, and, indeed the father. Not to mention the rights the child has upon being born: say, the right to be born into a family situation that can support it, for example.

The baby won't be born in isolation and isn't in a tank.

edited 26th Oct '12 8:13:42 AM by Euodiachloris

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#35361: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:13:04 AM

@Edwards Grizzly: And in return, will you acknowledge that we are not godless baby haters? That people who support abortion rights still love and want children? We care about the quality of a child's life and the quality of the mother's life, because we believe that it is irresponsible and cruel to bring a baby into the world that is not wanted and cannot be properly cared for.

In cases where having the baby is not a voluntary choice on the part of the mother, her right to determine what is done with her own body takes precedence over the potential life of the fetus.

edited 26th Oct '12 8:14:39 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#35362: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:13:26 AM

Personally, I'd only Grant Personhood until after the child is born, alive — as in the Registration of Birth sense. It's not until then they become a Citizen/Subject.

Keep Rolling On
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#35363: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:16:55 AM

Well the fact is that if we start recognizing unborn babies as people, we have all sorts of problems because of so many spontaneously aborted fetuses. That happens quite a lot... so...

Also the problem is that I haven't seen any proper answer for what we do with women who get abortions if abortions are made illegal.

Really in a legal sense calling a fetus a person is unfiesable.

edited 26th Oct '12 8:17:55 AM by ohsointocats

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#35364: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:17:22 AM

[up][up][up]

This. Its not that pro-choice advocates dislike babuies. Its that, at least for me, i feel that Pro-Life has an awful habit of assuming everything will turn out alright and have this condescending belief that women will automatically love their children and become effective mothers if forced to bear children to term.

Not to mention the Right (who are the vast majority iof Pro-Life), seems to have a downright allergy to funding programs that would allow a decent standard of living after the child is born or will help with the exorbitant medical costs involved in pre-natal care. I find it slightly heartless that Pro-Life both wants to make sure the baby comes to term, but at the same time, couldnt give two shits if the mother has the money to not end up in debt for years for simply having a baby.

edited 26th Oct '12 8:19:36 AM by Midgetsnowman

Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#35365: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:17:40 AM

There's a central American nation that has illegalized abortions. They go to jail.

I believe it's Costa Rica.

edited 26th Oct '12 8:17:54 AM by Completion

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#35366: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:19:24 AM

Yes, granting rights to unborn babies has caused us to have women in jail in the US for having miscarriages. These are women who just went through the traumatic loss of a baby they wanted, and they get thrown in prison for it. They didn't get abortions. They just had miscarriages. You know, like 1/3rd of pregnancies end in.

[up] It's Argentina and it's caused their abortion rate to at least double and has raised the death toll of both child and mother through the roof.

edited 26th Oct '12 8:20:32 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#35367: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:20:55 AM

So we would jail women who get abortions or women who have miscarriages?

Do we really need to bloat our prison system even more?

Oh wait, it's privately funded now. Of course we do.

#35368: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:22:25 AM

And in return, will you acknowledge that we are not godless baby haters? That people who support abortion rights still love and want children?

I have never suggested or believed that you are, so of course.

We care about the quality of a child's life and the quality of the mother's life, because we believe that it is irresponsible and cruel to bring a baby into the world that is not wanted and cannot be properly cared for.

In cases where having the baby is not a voluntary choice on the part of the mother, her right to determine what is done with her own body takes precedence over the potential life of the fetus.

Personally, I'd only Grant Personhood until after the child is born, alive — as in the Registration of Birth sense. It's not until then they become a Citizen/Subject.

I fully understand that you have these moral views. I believe them to be horribly mistaken, but you are not to blame for that. The only wrong thing that people have done here in this thread is to continue to uncritically spread vile lies about the pro-life movement while refusing to accept any possibility other than that pro-life people are malicious fanatics.

That is something that is wrong even outside of our differing moral perspectives, and I would really like it to stop.

<><
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#35369: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:23:20 AM

[up]

I dont believe theyre malicious fanatics. I believe theyre stupid, deluded, well meaning fanatics.

Which honestly, is even worse. Nothing's more dangerous than sincerely believing you're doing the right thing.

edited 26th Oct '12 8:24:06 AM by Midgetsnowman

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#35370: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:25:21 AM

I don't believe pro-lifers are malicious, I just fundamentally cannot support people who believe in forcing their religious views on others, even when they happen to be the same as mine.

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#35371: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:26:25 AM

[up]

My personal issue is more that I view their views as unintentionally condescending and sincere in a way that says "we dont think out the implications of our beliefs, but believe they are for the best anyways because GOD"

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#35372: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:28:10 AM

@Edwards Grizzly: All these "lies" you accuse us of spreading are nothing of the sort. They are naked truth. That's the problem; it's one thing to have a moral point of view and to wish that point of view be made law. It's another to deny the necessary ramifications of that point of view.

If you wish to reduce abortions, then you need to accept that every single study on the matter has shown that the most effective way to do so includes: (a) comprehensive sex education, (b) free access to contraception, (c) affordable and streamlined adoption programs, (d) comprehensive pre- and post-natal care. In countries where such things are provided, the abortion rate is dramatically lower, even though abortion itself is legal.

In short, letting people have abortions and taking care of them during and after pregnancy is the best way to prevent abortions. Crazy, right?

Now, why would someone deny the evidence of facts and condemn people to death and misery for the sake of a principle? It's not hard to conclude that they do not, in fact, care about the lives of those women and children.

edited 26th Oct '12 8:31:27 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
#35373: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:36:08 AM

[up] If evidence showed that permitting violence against gays would reduce the overall violence towards gays in the long run, I would still oppose it strenuously, as would any person with decent morals. It's the exact same situation unless you can rationalize the unborn as non-persons.

I don't believe pro-lifers are malicious, I just fundamentally cannot support people who believe in forcing their religious views on others

This has nothing to do with religious views, other than the possibility that a lack of religious views makes it easier to devalue human life. For anyone who values human life and considers the unborn to be people, this is about innocent people who are dying by the millions.

edited 26th Oct '12 8:39:35 AM by EdwardsGrizzly

<><
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#35374: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:37:20 AM

[up]No, it isn't. And, you know that was False Equivalence.

edited 26th Oct '12 8:38:01 AM by Euodiachloris

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#35375: Oct 26th 2012 at 8:39:32 AM

[up][up]

So basically "fuck the evidence. Even if this would save more babies overall just like I want, I prefer claiming the "moral high ground" and telling pro-choice people they are WRONG and I am RIGHT"

See. This is why we assume maliciousness or at least deluded selfshness. Because thats what you come off as. Selfish to the point you'd willfully ignore the best way to reach what you want simply because you'd rather have the room to morally grandstand on how much more MORAL you are than us. Because apparently thats more goddamn important than actually saving babies.

edited 26th Oct '12 8:40:26 AM by Midgetsnowman


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