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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#344351: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:31:25 PM

This is the line from Lee that Pendrake is referring to:

Lee: "I think [slavery] however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, and while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially and physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, and I hope will prepare and lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known and ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influence of Christianity, than the storms and tempests of fiery Controversy."

Translation: Slavery sucks, sure, but it's God's will. It's good for you, too. You're welcome."

Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#344353: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:34:38 PM

Here is an article by the New York Times that goes into some more detail about Lee’s views, in particular regarding a letter that Lee himself sent to the Times.

This in particular seems to be what is being referred to:

Of all the letters by Lee that have been collected by archivists and historians over the years, one of the most famous was written to his wife in 1856. “In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country,” he wrote.

But he added that slavery was “a greater evil to the white man than to the black race” in the United States, and that the “painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction.”

[nja]

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Dec 21st 2020 at 3:34:56 PM

Oh God! Natural light!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#344355: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:36:34 PM

"Oh, shit, man, slavery was harder on whites than on blacks, because now the whites are getting punished for it by the will of God. Damn, doesn't it suck to be us?"

That doesn't make Lee against slavery. It just makes him feel guilty about it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#344356: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:37:08 PM

So basically, the guy was a fundamental christian insurrectionist.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#344357: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:43:20 PM

I never claimed he was against slavery.

but he wasn't the pro-slavery ideologue a lot of folks think he is either.

He was just a guy with some really screwy viewpoints that worked out to have him on the Confederate side. Not exscusing him at all. They were wrong, but demonizing the guy isn't helpful either. i mean, hell, the vast majority of Confederate soldiers weren't slave owners. Lot of 'em either signed up to protect their homesteads, or because it was steady pay.

Very much like how the Wehrmacht (and Germans in general) took (and still occasionally take) flack over crap the Nazis did.

Edited by Pendrake on Dec 21st 2020 at 12:45:54 PM

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#344358: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:44:20 PM

Also the "slavery is bad, I wish we could do away with it, but just can't do it right now." was a thing slave owners had been saying since Jefferson.

Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#344359: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:46:57 PM

Yep, Jefferson actually being one of those people.

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#344360: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:49:19 PM

@Forenperser

To be fair, from my experience as a Conservative, that's less hypocrisy and more Broken Base. Conservatives don't have a unified opinion on the CSA and tend to either be pro-Confederate or view the Confederacy as evil and The Civil as a patriotic crusade against slavery.

Leviticus 19:34
djoki996 Since: Dec, 2018
#344361: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:54:00 PM

[up]X4 Please, please, please! Don't start propagating 'Clean Wehrmacht' myth, too. Please!

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#344362: Dec 21st 2020 at 1:02:00 PM

Pendrake, you're on very slippery ice here with this rationalization of the South (never mind the Nazis). Watch it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#344363: Dec 21st 2020 at 1:02:39 PM

The Civil War happened, in large part, because Southern views changed from the Jeffersonian “necessary evil” to Calhounian advocacy of it as as “positive good”. The North, by and large, wanted to limit slavery to the states where it already existed; the South wanted to expand it all the new states that were admitted. (Leading to the Missouri Compromise, the Kansas-Nebraska Act, etc. splitting the new states between slave and free.) The South continually pushed the boundaries to try to make all states slave states and to compel northern states to forcibly return fugitive slaves to the South - so in reality, in was the South that was trying to use the federal government to enforce its will on other states.

Outright abolitionism was a minority, though growing, point of view in the North, and was not something Lincoln had as a political objective when he was elected. The South seceded out of fury at not being permitted to expand slavery.

The most accurate summation I’ve read of the Civil War is that it had three sides: the South was pro-slavery, the North was pro-Union, and black people were (obviously) anti-slavery.

The Union was not fighting a moral crusade against slavery. The South was fighting a crusade for slavery. They were the ones who seceded. They were the ones who fired the first shots. They were the ones who chose war over peace. They had no grounds to complain of being “invaded”.

It’s not about the ethics of secession. (There were abolitionists who advocated secession of the Northeast states if the Fugitive Slave Law was not repealed, and I can see a moral case for that.) It’s about the South seceding in service to an evil cause.

Edited by Galadriel on Dec 21st 2020 at 4:14:12 AM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#344364: Dec 21st 2020 at 1:03:12 PM

[up][up][up]

Yeah, the whole Lee thing reminds me vividly of Saint Rommel.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Dec 21st 2020 at 10:03:25 AM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
djoki996 Since: Dec, 2018
#344365: Dec 21st 2020 at 1:07:07 PM

[up] I was actually talking about this:

Very much like how the Wehrmacht (and Germans in general) took (and still occasionally take) flack over crap the Nazis did.

And might have been a bit too dramatic and combative, at that. But, yeah, there are definitely similarities.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#344366: Dec 21st 2020 at 1:10:35 PM

Personally, I care less about his nuanced personal feelings than I do about his actions and what they supported. Whether or not he privately felt that slavery was an evil practice that should be ended, the fact is that he opposed abolition, fought for the Confederacy in defense of slavery, and rebelled against the nation he had sworn to protect in doing so.

No one gets to say "well actually he was anti-slavery and a patriot". Patriots don't take up arms against their own government. People who are anti-slavery don't join the side defending slavery. Robert E. Lee was, by his own actions, pro-slavery and a traitor to the United States.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#344367: Dec 21st 2020 at 1:12:42 PM

So the spending bill? They snuck the anti-streaming bill into it.

Sweeping new copyright measures poised to pass in spending bill

    Article 
On Monday, congressional leaders unveiled their massive spending and coronavirus relief measure, including a handful of controversial copyright measures civil liberties activists fear could penalize internet users for everyday online behavior. Congress is expected to vote on the package as early as Monday.

Congress’ $2.3 trillion spending and relief package includes controversial measures previously introduced as the CASE Act, the Trademark Modernization Act, and a felony streaming proposal — all significantly expanding the rights and powers of intellectual property owners.

Most controversially, the CASE Act would create a quasi-judicial tribunal of “Copyright Claims Officers” who would work to resolve infringement claims. As outlined in the bill, copyright holders could be awarded up to $30,000 if they find their creative work being shared online.

Proponents of the CASE Act, like the Copyright Alliance, argue that the bill would make it easier for independent artists to bring about copyright claims without having to endure the lengthy and expensive federal courts process. Still, critics of the bill, like the Electronic Frontier Foundation and Fight for the Future, argue that the CASE Act could fine ordinary internet users for engaging in everyday online behavior like sharing memes.

“The CASE Act is a terribly written law that will threaten ordinary Internet users with huge fines for everyday online activity. It’s absurd that lawmakers included these provisions in a must-pass spending bill,” Evan Greer, deputy director of Fight for the Future, said in a statement Monday. “We’re facing a massive eviction crisis and millions are unemployed due to the pandemic, but Congressional leaders could only muster $600 stimulus checks for COVID relief, but managed to cram in handouts for content companies like Disney?”

The multitrillion-dollar package also includes a provision authored by Sen. Thom Tillis (R-NC) that would allow the Justice Department to charge businesses for felony copyright infringement if they intentionally stream copyrighted material online. The Trademark Modernization Act would allow third parties to request the Patent Office to reject trademark applications in an effort to combat “trademark trolls” who make money off of trademarks they never planned to use.

As congressional leaders have worked to finalize this package over the last few weeks, a coalition of tech trade groups and advocacy organizations like the Electronic Frontier Foundation and the Internet Association urged lawmakers to refuse inclusion of these measures.

These groups claimed that the proposals could “have negative impacts on small- and medium-sized businesses, creators, libraries and their patrons, students, teachers, educational institutions, religious institutions, fan communities, internet users, and free expression,” in a letter first reported by Protocol earlier this month.

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#344368: Dec 21st 2020 at 1:14:12 PM

Yeah,the rider being attached to the bill is old news at this point,unless its another anti streaming bill

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#344369: Dec 21st 2020 at 1:14:58 PM

[up][up]More fool me for feeling relieved that it was (initially) shot down, I guess.

[up]I assume it's either that, or they chucked the old one back in when no one was looking.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Dec 21st 2020 at 4:16:08 AM

i'm tired, my friend
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#344370: Dec 21st 2020 at 1:15:16 PM

Restreaming someone's original content without permission or Fair Use is a copyright violation. I'm not sure how this is even a question. If this is used to go after Let's Players and reaction videos... yeah, that's a problem, but not all such use is cut from the same cloth.

If we're back to the RIAA trying to kill music sharing... this is one place where I stand with the corporate overlords, at least in principle.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 21st 2020 at 4:20:55 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#344371: Dec 21st 2020 at 1:19:36 PM

As for sympathetic people on the Confederate's side, I always point to the white youngsters from poor families who got manipulated by the slavers to fight their war for them, a war against their very own best interests.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#344372: Dec 21st 2020 at 1:19:54 PM

If this is used to go after Let's Players and reaction videos... yeah, that's a problem

The idea is, I think, that this is the inevitable conclusion of the bill: that anybody streaming video games online, regardless of size or income, will end up either having to pay tens of thousands of dollars in fines, or (from what I've heard, don't quote me on this) potentially be arrested.

i'm tired, my friend
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#344373: Dec 21st 2020 at 1:21:30 PM

[up] Hasn't that idea already been killed on First Amendment principles? Congress can try to bring it back but it'll fail hard in court.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 21st 2020 at 4:21:48 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344374: Dec 21st 2020 at 1:21:37 PM

The concern is that someone could get a criminal record for having a copyrighted ringtone go off in the background of a stream, major companies have issues false copyright claims in the past and giving them the power to send in the FBI would likely make things worse.

Though I’m not seeing the amendment as part of the bill, the linked bill in the articule is only the senate version, we had this before and the house simply passed a clean version that the senate then okayed.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#344375: Dec 21st 2020 at 1:22:43 PM

Andrew Johnson was picked as a favor to War Democrats. This was very much a situational move unique to mid-1864. Sherman hadn’t yet taken Savannah so there wasn’t a big banner victory to carry Lincoln to re-election over the peace faction.

If the North kicked ass sooner, the Republican ticket would have probably wouldn’t have changed. The National Union stuff was just there to check any possibility of Mc Clellan getting substantial support.

ALSO: I spotted a reference to the Clean Wehrmacht myth. That one is absolutely false. War crimes were institutionalized at every level of Nazi war planning, period.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Dec 21st 2020 at 4:25:23 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

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