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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344326: Dec 21st 2020 at 10:33:24 AM

One could argue that considering he was assassinated Lincoln wasn’t the victor, it was Johnson.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#344327: Dec 21st 2020 at 10:42:39 AM

Of course, Lincoln's reputation might be a bit more spotty had he survived (the whole martyr thing aside) and gone on to oversee the first years of Reconstruction. Even if he didn't botch it as hard as Johnson did, I doubt we would look upon his occupation policies very well. Nothing suggests he would have gone far enough to destroy the planter class and repress political violence among southern whites. Would probably be the Grant Administration but earlier, in all honesty.


I have to say that I am surprised Trump hasn't fired Barr outright yet. He's doing an awful lot of undermining in his last few days...

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#344328: Dec 21st 2020 at 10:44:28 AM

I imagine the reason that some people believe that Lee wae a hero on the wrong side and that the civil war wasn't mostly about slavery could be a case of Good Cannot Comprehend Evil. Many people living today have a hard time accepting the reality of that many people being that racist and rationalise that they must've had another reason for doing what they did.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#344329: Dec 21st 2020 at 10:49:54 AM

A lot of it from my perspective as a non-US person is simple propaganda and the South collectively wanting some kind of unearned vindication instead of accepting what they did was wrong and moving forward.

When I was taught about the US civil war here (in broad strokes), I was never under the impression the war was about anything but slavery.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#344330: Dec 21st 2020 at 11:02:00 AM

There's almost no possibility that Lincoln would have botched it as bad as Johnson because Johnson was a Southern pro-slavery individual who only sided with Lincoln because he was hated THAT much socially.

Post-Civil War, every Southerner kissed his ass and he removed all repercussions for their treason.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#344331: Dec 21st 2020 at 11:06:39 AM

Lincoln only got him as VP as a "We can still be friends" gesture to the south. I have to wonder if he personally thought it was a good idea or if someone in his cabinet persuaded him to do it.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#344332: Dec 21st 2020 at 11:11:01 AM

It was the ultimate Joe Biden move and backfired horrifyingly.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#344333: Dec 21st 2020 at 11:30:45 AM

Of course, Lincoln's reputation might be a bit more spotty had he survived (the whole martyr thing aside) and gone on to oversee the first years of Reconstruction. Even if he didn't botch it as hard as Johnson did, I doubt we would look upon his occupation policies very well. Nothing suggests he would have gone far enough to destroy the planter class and repress political violence among southern whites. Would probably be the Grant Administration but earlier, in all honesty.

It's hard to know what Lincoln's policies would have been because he was revising them all the way up till his death. At his most lenient, his 10% plan had literally just 10% of the voting population of each rebel state swear loyalty to the Union and abolish slavery in their state before their government would be recognized again. Even that had qualifiers forbidding pardons for Confederate military officers and government officials, which would have been a huge blow to the plantation class considering they made up the bulk of the CSA's leadership. Radical Republicans still balked at it for being too soft and they and Lincoln would go on to have a running argument over who got to administer the defeated states; Congress or the president.

Lincoln had his limits. After Richmond fell, some Confederate legislatures offered to act as a provisional government to the state for the purpose of officially withdrawing Virginia and its soldiers out of the war. Lincoln approved, but then they started acting as if they were the official government, no reconstruction at all. Lincoln had them kicked out and the state put under military rule. He acknowledged in his last speech that the Reconstructed Louisiana government he had approved of did not give voting rights to the black population, but it had abolished slavery, did away with an "apprenticeship" that would have kept the freedmen working for the masters even longer, and set up public schools for black people as well. Lincoln felt it was better to build up from this rather than destroy everything and start over from scratch. He did very publicly declare he wanted them to give suffrage to black soldiers and the "educated", and also stated more or less that the Reconstructed governments existed at his sufferance and he would do away with them if they weren't moving on black rights fast enough.

He ended that speech saying he might have to make some new pronouncement to the South should the situation require it. But the part about voting rights for educated black people and soldiers was too much for one person sitting in the audience. John Wilkes Boothe was there listening to Lincoln and after that part he swore to his friend, "That means nigger citizenship! Now, by God, I'll put him through. That is the last speech he will ever make."

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344334: Dec 21st 2020 at 11:36:55 AM

One does wonder what would have happened if rather than Johnson, Lincoln had picked Stevens as his VP. It might well have saved Lincoln’s life, as I imagine the possibility of president Stevens would have kept assassins at bay.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#344335: Dec 21st 2020 at 11:40:38 AM

I mean. If they could assassinate one, why not the other?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#344336: Dec 21st 2020 at 11:47:06 AM

That same night Booth's fellow conspirators did try to kill Seward and Johnson but failed.

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#344337: Dec 21st 2020 at 11:49:08 AM

The assassins actually were planning on killing Johnson as well, but the guy who had been tasked with it lost his nerve and didn’t go through with it.

William Henry Seward, the Secretary of State, was also a target, but survived the attempt.

[nja]

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Dec 21st 2020 at 2:49:19 PM

Oh God! Natural light!
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344338: Dec 21st 2020 at 11:53:01 AM

So I just looked into the rules, and under the succession rules of the time the presidency would have been temporarily filled by the President Pro Tempore of the Senate (who during Johnson’s time was a radical Republican similar to Stevens), and a special election then held.

So that’s the other alternate history, if either Booth’s co-conspirator had succeeded or the Radical Republicans had responded to Lincon’s assassination by assassinating Johnson, it would have resulted in Benjamin Wade as temporary president, after which you might well have seen Grant elected early.

Edited by Silasw on Dec 21st 2020 at 7:54:45 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#344339: Dec 21st 2020 at 11:54:11 AM

in fairness to the Lee bit, his views were Fair for Its Day. We can judge folks back then till the cows come home because we have the benefit of hindsight and about 150 years-ish of social development, but there were plenty of folks on BOTH sides who were fine with slavery.

The Civil War didn't start over solely over it, but it very much did end up being about it. Hell, should also be noted Slavery being toted as it was by the Union was very much to get Free Blacks to join the war effort. It didn't really change how most Whites saw them during or post-war.

there was no "good" side in the Civil War. Just the side who won.

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#344340: Dec 21st 2020 at 11:57:28 AM

[up]x2 Actually it was Lafayette Foster of Connecticut, not Benjamin Wade.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#344341: Dec 21st 2020 at 11:58:43 AM

[up][up] That's an overly cynical take and one that serves conservative propaganda. Be careful. There were certainly elements on the North who were taking advantage of the situation to grab some cheap labor, but the overt and essential motivation for the war was slavery, and the South wanted to keep it. Don't ever mistake that.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#344342: Dec 21st 2020 at 11:59:38 AM

@Pendrake No, no, nononono.

The American Civil War was always about slavery, at least from the Confederate perspective. The Union had some member states that were pro-slavery and initially painted its war as not being directly anti-slavery. However, this still means at worst there's a "Pro-Slavery" and "Not-Pro-Slavery" side.

Also, The Confederacy practiced a particularly cruel version of slavery (even by the era's standards) and was actively doubling down on that cruelty. To use a good metaphor here, the 1930's were highly racist, but The Nazis were still abnormally racist.

That's the thing you have to keep in mind when discussing Fair for Its Day: some people are evil, even in their era's context. It was The Union that was Fair for Its Day, not The Confederacy.

Edited by Protagonist506 on Dec 21st 2020 at 11:59:59 AM

Leviticus 19:34
Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#344343: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:01:11 PM

Actually, the problem was that the South wanted to EXPAND it. As in bring in more folks from Africa.

There were still plenty of pro-slavery Union, they just didn't approve of expanding the practice.

[up]Yes, and right up until the breakout of the Civil War, Lee was considered to be the one to be in command of the UNION forces. Him specifically is who i'm saying had Fair for Its Day views. The guys he was defending, not so much.

For instance, Lee was actually against secession. He also knew the Civil war would be bloody, and not "glorious" like his fellows seemed to think it'd be. What ultimately caused him to resign from the US Army was defending his home state of Virginia.

I'm also not saying he was anti-slavery either, he was a slave owner, and supported the Crittenden Compromise, after all, that attempt to get slavery permanently instituted into the constitution. TBH, the guy was actually very paradoxical in his views.

Edited by Pendrake on Dec 21st 2020 at 12:14:55 PM

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#344344: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:06:40 PM

Lincoln only got him as VP as a "We can still be friends" gesture to the south. I have to wonder if he personally thought it was a good idea or if someone in his cabinet persuaded him to do it.

Lincoln only picked him as VP as a "We can still be friends" gesture to Democrats, not the South. There's a difference. Democrats were still a national party and had strong presence in the North. Lincoln needed to peel off enough of them to ensure his re-election and Johnson was an acknowledgment of the "War Democrat" wing of the National Union Party that combined them and the Republicans with Lincoln as their leader. As the name implies, these were Democrats who supported the war, as opposed to the mainline party which was advocating a negotiated peace that would most likely see the rebels winning the war. Hindsight is 20/20 20/21, and Johnson seemed like a good idea at the time because he was the only Southern senator to stay loyal to the Union and he was virulently pro-war. He loathed the planter class for looking down on a poor self-made man like himself and at the time was only too happy to enforce Lincoln's proclamations freeing slaves if it meant getting back at the slave owners. We take it for granted now, but for much of the 1864 election in looked like Lincoln was going to lose, so they did everything they could to make the pro-war, pro-13th Amendment National Union Party open to as many people as possible.

It's weird now, but at the time of Lincoln's death people were celebrating/worried that Johnson would be harsher on the South than Lincoln ever would be. Grant is among the latter group. You read his speeches and letters during the war and easy to see someone who was totally ready to burn down the South and salt the earth, while championing the freed black people. What Grant and many others didn't realize at the time was that as much as Johnson hated the rich slave owners, he hated their slaves just as much and was only too happy to throw them under the bus if he could benefit the poor Southern whites and look like their hero. Blacks didn't deserve a hand-out, poor whites always deserved a hand up in his mind. And it tickled him so much to have the Confederate leaders come to him for pardons, which he happily gave in exchange for stroking his ego. Which as I mentioned earlier, was something Lincoln at his most lenient specifically refused to do.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344345: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:09:25 PM

The fact that Lee was late to show his true colours doesn’t change what they were, remember that Virginia split in half over the civil war, he very consciously chose the side that let him own other people as properly and enslave free people based on the colour of their skin.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Brandon Deadly Vu! from Between Thanksgiving and Christmas (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
Deadly Vu!
#344346: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:15:01 PM

"Virgil, quick come see! There goes, Robert E. Lee!"

Had to post, sorry.

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Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#344347: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:20:21 PM

he didn't have "true colors" though. He literally always was how he was.

The guy was weird. And kinda religiously fanatical. He apparently hated slavery, but not for the fact of what it did to blacks, but how it affected the whites practicing it. He also actually freed slaves a few times, saying it was "God's plan." But wouldn't free others, claiming "God will free them when he's ready."

The more i read up on him, the harder it is for me to believe he was a competent military commander, given how many Cloud Cuckoo Lander Insane Troll Logic things he's mentioned as doing.

Then again, I look at 2020, and history seems to be repeating itself.

Edited by Pendrake on Dec 21st 2020 at 12:23:22 PM

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344348: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:26:31 PM

This is the first I’m hearing of Lee having anything but full-throated support for slavery, if you can share sources I’d love to read more.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#344349: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:29:23 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee#Lee's_views_on_race_and_slavery

Wikipedia bit about it.

link is borked due to the comma, but it's in the index near the start, easy enough to find. His postwar politics bit is also interesting.

Edited by Pendrake on Dec 21st 2020 at 12:31:52 PM

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#344350: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:29:43 PM

You know what I also always love about the Civil War debate? This beautiful contradiction.

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