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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#344151: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:08:27 AM

And Biden has won. And if you’re saying “don’t talk about X until after the Georgia runoffs”, fine. It’s a couple weeks during the holidays, most people won’t be paying attention to politics at that exact moment anyways.

But after that, people need to be fighting for actual progress, not just refraining from actively seeking to make things worse.

Edited by Galadriel on Dec 19th 2020 at 1:09:52 PM

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#344152: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:08:48 AM

"I care that it is not actively suborning our national security, environment, economy, social cohesion, and so on."

Well, most of us appear to believe that progressive policies dont do any of that. Progressive policies arent just about social justice, they're about moving society forward in every way. Worrying about climate change is progressive. So is sustainable job growth.

Edited by DeMarquis on Dec 19th 2020 at 1:10:24 PM

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#344153: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:09:30 AM

Obviously the dominant centrist wing of the Democrats (a big tent party with a diverse set of ideologies, need I remind people) aren't always making it easy for us to fight the GOP at full strength, but they're not the enemy per se, as some ideological purists seem to believe.

They're allies of convenience whose muscle we need to wage the war, so we should choose our battles selectively and save our strength for the real issues like downballot efforts, and hold our ground if they attempt to smother us, instead of trying to pull them kicking and screaming into ideological solidarity with us every step of the way. Biden may not be a friend but again he's also not the enemy here, not in comparison to the Republicans.

To assume that we must immediately dispose of him as a pure obstacle to progress now that he's muscled Trump out (and he hasn't yet; don't take that for granted, not before January) is a common issue with leftists stricken by the "black pill" so to say. We don't need to accept everything he does but the fact that we can work with him at all to adopt progressive talking points compared to the likes of say, someone like Pelosi, and certainly more than someone like Trump, is an advantage we should keep in mind.

[nja] by Galadriel regarding discussion of the Democratic Party as a tool/engine rather than an institution to be supported for its own sake.

Edited by AlleyOop on Dec 19th 2020 at 1:13:00 PM

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#344154: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:10:38 AM

I guess my biggest concern is that I do not think Biden will take the threat of Republicans seriously enough, particularly with what I believe is an ideologically based desire for bipartisanship.

We will see if he wises up, or at least lets Kamala take the fight to the Republicans, because if he doesn't it may just make things worse.

TitanJump Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Singularity
#344155: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:11:18 AM

They can start by kicking the GOP against the wall for having the sheer audacity to bring up the "Deficit" as a reason to block the Covid-relief aid from reaching the american people...

...after having enriched themselves on that scam tax-cut they forced through without so much as a squeak about that deficit earlier during Trump's term.

Edited by TitanJump on Dec 19th 2020 at 7:11:44 PM

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#344156: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:11:34 AM

He's the president. He's not going anywhere for four years (at least). Of course we have to work with him (or through him, as the case may be).

Remember folks, Biden was there when the Republicans stabbed Obama in the back. I doubt he's forgotten.

Edited by DeMarquis on Dec 19th 2020 at 1:12:35 PM

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#344157: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:12:04 AM

Who said anything about “disposing of” Biden? All I said is that over the next four years there are going to need to be advocacy campaigns and political pressure to push him and Congress to pursue as many progressive policies as they functionally have the power to implement.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#344158: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:13:49 AM

That wasn't aimed at you, I agree with a chunk of what you said.

There's a difference between being not-progressive and actively hostile to progressivism, but the blackpilled among the left believe the two are literally equivalent (their further beliefs being "and that's why anyone who's not fully with us must be purged/is proof we basically lost", because such people love the Defeatist part of Determined Defeatist so much that they become the Doomed Defeatist).

Edited by AlleyOop on Dec 19th 2020 at 1:26:59 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#344159: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:14:04 AM

Mio: Yes, that's a reasonable concern, especially since Obama fell into the same trap. I agree with you.

Titan Jump: The problem there isn't Democrats; it's the media, who love deficit hawkery as a way to prove that they are "serious and nonpartisan". During Obama's tenure, they were all over it.

Galadriel: Of course, but those campaigns should not write Biden off as an "anti-progressive" if he doesn't immediately hop to their tune. And remember that we need to win in 2022 as well.

De Marquis: I wasn't talking about Democrats; I was talking about Republicans doing those things.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 19th 2020 at 1:15:14 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#344160: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:19:50 AM

"I guess my biggest concern is that I do not think Biden will take the threat of Republicans seriously enough, particularly with what I believe is an ideologically based desire for bipartisanship."

I'll admit this line of thinking is weird to me. It's not like Biden is some wide eyed novice or spent the last 20 years cryogenically frozen and missed the rabid partisanship of the Republicans. He's seen what we've seen. He saw them stymie Obama. He was right there with Obama in the White House. A lot of those negotiation the Republicans refused to participate in had Biden in them.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#344161: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:23:42 AM

I'll admit this line of thinking is weird to me. It's not like Biden is some wide eyed novice or spent the last 20 years cryogenically frozen and missed the rabid partisanship of the Republicans. He's seen what we've seen. He saw them stymie Obama. He was right there with Obama in the White House. A lot of those negotiation the Republicans refused to participate in had Biden in them.

Right, but that's why people have reasons for concern. He saw all of that and he still talks about how he can get Republicans to sit down and make a deal. And has repeated that sentiment many times during the primary.

It's telling that the only real defense of his rhetoric is that he's lying and doesn't expect them to work with him.

I desperately hope he is, but it's also worth acknowledging the possibility that he sincerely means it. It's not like ideological blinders stopping a powerful and insulated person from doing what's necessary is some unprecedented event.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#344162: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:33:31 AM

Our government isn’t structured so that we can force the Progressive draught down unwilling throats. We have to make some attempt, even if it’s perfunctory, to deal with the GOP because they can still make life hard as a minority party. It becomes unavoidable if Mitch still is the Leader.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#344163: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:39:19 AM

Our government isn’t structured so that we can force the Progressive draught down unwilling throats. We have to make some attempt, even if it’s perfunctory, to deal with the GOP because they can still make life hard as a minority party. It becomes unavoidable if Mitch still is the Leader.

I wouldn't say that we have to.

We get enough votes and abolish the filibuster or we get nothing done.

As an actionable strategy "get Republicans to work with us" is exactly at the level of "the political revolution will sweep away all obstacles!!!".

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Dec 19th 2020 at 10:39:53 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#344164: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:46:00 AM

As an alternative, we need enough votes to sustain majority government, and those clearly aren't present. So...

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#344165: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:48:56 AM

It's like that moment before the duel begins, and each opponent looks the other in the eye, nods their head, salutes, and gives the other guy one last chance to back down.

It's not insincere so much as pro forma.

Edited by DeMarquis on Dec 19th 2020 at 1:50:03 PM

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#344166: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:49:15 AM

How many Democratic senators are left in states that voted for Trump vs Republican senators left in states that voted for Biden?

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#344167: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:56:08 AM

As an alternative, we need enough votes to sustain majority government, and those clearly aren't present. So...

As I said, we get the votes or get nothing done. That will hinge on the results of the Georgia runoffs.

It's simply not possible to expect Republican assistance.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#344168: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:56:56 AM

[up] Reminder that Manchin's presence has all but guaranteed the continued existence of the filibuster, even if we get those Senate seats in Georgia.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Dec 19th 2020 at 1:57:21 PM

i'm tired, my friend
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#344169: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:59:00 AM

[up]

I assure you I haven't forgotten. Either he will change his mind or we'll get nothing done. In both cases, Biden's mouth noises about bipartisanship are equally pointless.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Dec 19th 2020 at 10:59:18 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#344170: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:59:46 AM

The filibuster remains a protection against Republican legislation. There are also alternatives.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#344171: Dec 19th 2020 at 11:01:02 AM

[up][up]Short of mind control, that ain't happening.

i'm tired, my friend
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#344172: Dec 19th 2020 at 11:01:46 AM

[up][up]There’s really not. We need more reliably blue seats, not “we get nothing done in exchange for you getting nothing done” and those reliably blue seats can come from admitting states, which will only happen without the filibuster.

My musician page
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#344173: Dec 19th 2020 at 11:11:13 AM

Small, somewhat OT question: So I know Presidents can only be elected for two terms.

But what happens if a Vice President takes over in a Presidents last year due to the latter dying, and then he runs in the next term, does that last year he took over already count as a 'full' term, can he only run for 4 more years?

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344174: Dec 19th 2020 at 11:13:19 AM

To me, the goal of a progressive is the advancement of progressive policies.

See to me the goal I’d the advancement of policies that are more progressive, even if they’re not capital P Progressive.

Single-payer is more progressive then Obamacare, which was more progressive then the previous system, neither single-payer or Obamacare is an actual progressive system (I’d argue that any medical system where you pay anything but a processing fee at the time of care isn’t a truly progressive one, including Medicare for All).

And Biden has won. And if you’re saying “don’t talk about X until after the Georgia runoffs”, fine. It’s a couple weeks during the holidays, most people won’t be paying attention to politics at that exact moment anyways.

I don’t mind some pushing now, but I want it to be actual pushing/ideas, not blind complaining or demanding he sign onto things that can’t pass.

He seems to be listening at least in part, there’s a reason that the progressive wing of the party seem to have been able to block the more right-wing suggested cabinet appointees.

Hell I suspect that Biden might have wanted a Republican in the cabinet, but deferred to the progressive wing of the party when they told him to not dare.

How many Democratic senators are left in states that voted for Trump vs Republican senators left in states that voted for Biden?

Current 3 Democrats (Montana, West Virginia and Ohio) and 3 Republicans (Maine, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania), plus the two seats yet to be determined in Georgia.

All three Democrat senators are up in 2024, while Maine was just up and Wisconsin and Pennsylvania are up in 2022 (with the Pennsylvania Republican retiring).

Reminder that Manchin's presence has all but guaranteed the continued existence of the filibuster, even if we get those Senate seats in Georgia.

We will still have the filibuster in some form or another, I’ve still not yet seem anything saying that Manchin opposes filibuster reform (like making Republicans actually Filibuster).

But what happens if a Vice President takes over in a Presidents last year due to the latter dying, and then he runs in the next term, does that last year he took over already count as a 'full' term, can he only run for 4 more years?

They can do a max of 10 years and 2 elections. So ascending to the presidency mid-term only stops a 2nd run if it’s within the first half of that president term.

Edited by Silasw on Dec 19th 2020 at 7:18:42 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#344175: Dec 19th 2020 at 11:13:50 AM

[up][up]I don't think that's ever actually come up, even before the amendment instituting term limits happened.

Edited by Deadbeatloser22 on Dec 19th 2020 at 7:14:02 PM

"Yup. That tasted purple."

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