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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#344076: Dec 19th 2020 at 6:47:15 AM

[up]The extremely asymmetrical nature of the primary does not make it a good indicator of which candidate actually reflects the majority opinions of the party, and either way I feel that the fact that he ran to the right of the vast majority of candidates during the primary and was specifically in opposition to policies that were to the left of him (not even on the left-wing necessarily) would indicate that he is on the party's right-wing.

The only way I think saying he is not on the party's right-wing would be to suggest that he has moved the party somewhat to the right overall, which I don't know if people here would necessarily agree with.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#344077: Dec 19th 2020 at 7:10:08 AM

In fact, Biden has moved substantially left during the campaign compared to his stated positions prior to it, much as Clinton did in 2016.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#344078: Dec 19th 2020 at 7:16:50 AM

I think the point has been made before, that what progressives can do now (apart from the Georgia elections, and I'm not in Georgia) is try to keep the pressure on to do what we want and need him and congress to do. I pretty much agree. Don't let them forget about the progressive wing of the party; work with what we have.

And strategize for the future, I suppose.

Makir Since: Feb, 2017
#344079: Dec 19th 2020 at 7:44:06 AM

Biden is, essentially, an Obama 2.0, he's a return to 'normalcy'. Trump put America two steps backwards and Biden will bring it 1.5 steps forward. You might be surprised to know that most Democrat voters aren't leftists or progressives, but the majority of them DETEST Trump and just wanted him out of office for one reason or the other.

They're the "I just wanna grill for God's sake" crowd, and they'll probably get completely uninvolved with politics now that they're done. American progressives and leftists CAN do better than Biden in terms of candidates.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#344080: Dec 19th 2020 at 7:50:46 AM

Most people want a return to normalcy. That's the whole point here.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#344081: Dec 19th 2020 at 7:52:23 AM

You might be surprised to know that most Democrat voters aren't leftists or progressives, but the majority of them DETEST Trump and just wanted him out of office for one reason or the other.

I'm certainly not.

i'm tired, my friend
Makir Since: Feb, 2017
#344082: Dec 19th 2020 at 7:53:39 AM

[up][up] Progressivists and leftists want progress though, not JUST normalcy, that's the whole point, and that's why for most of them Biden was just a stopgap candidate to kick out the objectively worse candidate.

[up] That is indeed the joke.

Edited by Makir on Dec 19th 2020 at 4:54:19 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#344083: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:01:03 AM

Progress is measured against the current state of affairs. Donald Trump embodies a reaction to progressive politics — even what we got with Obama, which was not as bad as people keep saying, but anyway.

If progressives maintain this idea that their politics are the natural and proper path that all correct-thinking people must naturally follow, they are falling into the same intellectual trap as conservatives, and we will continue to get these wild oscillations.

If you want stable governance, you have to appeal to a majority, and the majority will always land somewhere to the center. Politics is the art of compromise, and that means finding some way to reach out to people who aren't in love with what the left desires.

If you insist on all or nothing, you risk getting the nothing.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 19th 2020 at 11:02:06 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#344084: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:06:17 AM

The issue of having the whole spectrum of the left vs the far right as the two options.

Wake me up at your own risk.
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#344085: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:09:27 AM

[up][up][up][up][up]Did he win because he moved to the left, or because he was a moderate? It can't really be both unless you say he started from a conservative position.

Either way, I don't think that is as clear cut as you say. Pretty much every Democrat and plenty of independents wanted Trump out of office at any cost, but you can not assume that they were looking for a "return to normalcy" just cause they voted for Biden.

Not to mention that there is no guarantee that this return to normalcy will help resolve the current problems with the economy, healthcare, the environment or any other of the pressing matters of the day. In fact history suggests the opposite.

Barack Obama campaigned from a more progressive position before settling to much more right and conciliatory position. If that is a reflection of what we can expect from Joe Biden (who was already somewhat to the right of Obama) which does not bode well for necessary healthcare or environmental regulation.

[up][up]Your assuming that all progressives/leftists just want one particular set of policies, which is not and has never been the case.

I also have not argued for a particular set of policies that must be taken so much as a concern that conciliation to the Republicans may cause certain critical issues to not be addressed in an effective way, or even at all.

Edited by Mio on Dec 19th 2020 at 11:13:53 AM

Makir Since: Feb, 2017
#344086: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:11:25 AM

[up][up][up] Here's the thing: The center is just whatever the status quo is in a particular society, which for America it's liberalism, which is not the same as leftism or even progressivism. The 'center' is not an actual political ideology, and Centrism pretty much just means "Mantain the current status quo of the society. Sorry to inoke Godwin's Law, but a far-right citizen of Nazi Germany would be considered a centrist, the 'normal' political ideology of that specific society.

Edited by Makir on Dec 19th 2020 at 5:12:21 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#344087: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:13:21 AM

The actual politics of our 2020 candidate matter very little in reality. Biden will have his hands full repairing all the damage Trump did, and without a conclusive majority in Congress, the Democrats' legislative agenda is very much in doubt.

Biden has already indicated he won't run again in 2024. The best we can hope for in my opinion is to use his administration to bootstrap a more aggressive Democrat and work on a legislative majority. If we don't get both, there is little hope for significant change.

[up] News flash: The only way you get your political agenda is if you get elected. If Bernie Sanders had run for office in Nazi Germany... well, he would have been sent to the concentration camps, but more specifically he would have lost, and nothing would have changed.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 19th 2020 at 11:14:29 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Makir Since: Feb, 2017
#344088: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:16:06 AM

[up] But that doesn't mean much if the general population doesn't move leftwards. You can only find aggressive Democrats in the progressive and leftist aisle of the wing. But if people are still afraid of spooky scary socialists and muh SJWs during the 2024 election, another Trump will come along and the cycle repeats.

Liberalism in America isn't satisfying anyone either on the far left or the far right (but for different reasons, mind you). I would dare say that Trump has damaged the GOP and the average Republican voter so much that bipartisanship is now close to impossible, and trying to appeal to the Republican voter is like speaking to a brick wall.. It's the McCarthy era all over again, except now it's arguably even worse.

We need not forget how CLOSE America was to falling to full on fascism.

Edited by Makir on Dec 19th 2020 at 5:18:07 PM

ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#344089: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:16:55 AM

Gonna say it again. The primary is not an indicator of what the American people actually want because it's often decided before half of the country even gets to put in a vote. A primary that happens on the same day across the country would be a better indicator, not one that takes 3+ months to do where a lot of people don't feel like they have a voice in the process. I know people who live in the 2nd half of those states who never vote in the primary because I quote, "What's the point? The people in those first states get to decide and we don't. So why should I vote in a primary? Why should I even give a damn about it?"

Edited by ScubaWolf on Dec 19th 2020 at 11:18:08 AM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#344090: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:17:15 AM

[up][up]What's your magic plan to fix that, though? You can nominate all the progressives you want for office, but if they can't win elections...

[up] Biden had a clear lead across all polled primary voters. There's no reason to believe the outcome would have been substantially different had all votes been held on the same day.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 19th 2020 at 11:18:09 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Makir Since: Feb, 2017
#344091: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:18:27 AM

[up] Dare I say, Direct Action? Politics is not just electoralism.

Edited by Makir on Dec 19th 2020 at 5:18:41 PM

PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#344092: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:18:40 AM

Then the need is to focus on what will win people over to those positions and countering bad-faith smears of progressive agenda items.

ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#344093: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:19:00 AM

[up][up][up] If you know your vote is one of the last states in the primary, and you know it's not going to matter because your candidate dropped out during the first 10 and the winner was already called at state 20, are you going to vote? Because I sure as hell wouldn't.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Dec 19th 2020 at 11:19:32 AM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Makir Since: Feb, 2017
#344094: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:21:24 AM

Also, I didn't wanna mention Bernie at first, but...do you even have any idea how much his campaign moved people leftwards? Even if he lost the election he still managed to have a political and demographical impact far bigger than that of Biden's campaign. You move people leftwards not by winning elections, but to convince them.

Biden won, but people on the right side of the aisle detest him at best and want him dead at worst. He cannot bring people over from the right, nor is he able to push liberals to become leftsits or progressives with arguements and policies.

Edited by Makir on Dec 19th 2020 at 5:23:11 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#344095: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:22:13 AM

[up][up][up][up] Shall we whip out the guillotines, then?

[up][up] National polling was consistently in Biden's favor across the entire primary process. I would have voted for Warren had it been an option, but that doesn't mean she had any real chance of winning.

[up] I am as yet somewhat uncertain how much Sanders himself is responsible for getting more progressive agenda items so much as the movement he represents, but that movement has enough deeply troubling elements to it that I'm quite glad it did not win.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 19th 2020 at 11:23:48 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#344096: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:23:39 AM

[up][up][up][up][up][up]There is also grassroots organizing and advocacy, something that some Democrats with an overt focus on electoralism and "party discipline" actually seem pretty hostile towards.

Given how more conservative Democrats were quick to blame the failure of down ballot candidates on "Progressive Slogans" and "Socialism" instead of poor campaign strategy speaks to some pretty real problems with the "Moderates" ability to address people's issues.

[up]What exactly are these deeply troubling elements and are they genuinely any worse then potential troubling elements of the moderates?

Edited by Mio on Dec 19th 2020 at 11:26:38 AM

PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#344097: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:24:09 AM

EDIT: Nevermind, blanked, irrelevant

Edited by PointMaid on Dec 19th 2020 at 11:24:46 AM

Makir Since: Feb, 2017
#344098: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:25:15 AM

[up][up][up] Who said anything about that? Direct Action isn't political violence. Strikes, protests and other manner of tactics outside of voting are.

Hell, arguably just talking to your friends and family about unionizing and trying to convince them with arguements could count as direct action.

The only major problem I saw with Bernie's movements were the Bernie-Or-Busters, people who (IMHO justifiably) were angry with the DNC due to Bernie losing, and thus refused to vote for Biden.

Edited by Makir on Dec 19th 2020 at 5:26:52 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#344099: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:26:35 AM

[up][up][up]Given how successfully Republicans weaponized "progressive slogans", I have my doubts that more of them would have helped. Sound bites and catchy slogans may rile people up but they make for poor politics, which is my primary beef against Sanders.

[up] I talk to a lot of people and I find opinions all over the place. The myth that silent voters are all secret supporters of [insert ideology here] if only you could get them to realize it is lunacy.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 19th 2020 at 11:28:03 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#344100: Dec 19th 2020 at 8:26:50 AM

I mean, I will said dmeocrat also hate trump because he was so regresive, donald does have that latin american tendecy of "I will undone everything my predecesor did to stick with him, hahahahah!" mentality, which if continuie it will seriously hamper any hability to get policy done.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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