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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Makir Since: Feb, 2017
#344026: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:24:53 PM

^ Biden is not allied with leftists, there's no wide-spread plan to enhance the rights of the working class that I can see in the works. Just because Biden was the objectively better pick does not mean he is beyond criticism.

Hell, he hasn't even picked Bernie Sanders as a member of the Cabinet, which considering Bernie's background, political skills and popularity and the fact that he still supported him when he lost the primaries...Kinda shows that he's not here to create any meaningful change. (If this changes at a later date I will be shocked, but at least in a pleasant way.)

Again, change is the key word here. If Biden does not meaningfully change the conditions of America or at least tries to, then he has failed both leftists and progressives.

Edited by Makir on Dec 18th 2020 at 2:28:28 PM

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#344027: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:31:52 PM

Sanders in Cabinet. That's your barometer to judge the Biden Transition?

Sanders is needed in the Senate. Hell, we don't even know if he wants a Cabinet post.

The idea that Biden is operating in bad faith because he hasn't picked Sanders doesn't mesh with reality.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Dec 18th 2020 at 9:32:35 AM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#344028: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:32:50 PM

There's nothing wrong with Biden wanting Sanders to stay in the senate, given how important the Senate is going to be in him getting anything done.

I don't think leftists should have any obligation to like Biden but that isn't a particularly good argument.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#344029: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:34:23 PM

Especially considering Vermont (and Massachusetts, for those who wanted Warren in the Cabinet as well) has a Republican governor who would likely just fill their seat with another Republican.

Edited by AlleyOop on Dec 18th 2020 at 8:40:40 AM

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#344030: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:35:46 PM

I'm with Silasw. Also, the complaint about Sanders not being in the cabinet sets off my bad faith alarm. I don't think there's been any indication that Sanders was shooting for a cabinet spot himself (as opposed to say suggesting picks that he would support).

With both him and Warren, it would be a loss of an important voice in the Senate without much benefit, since much of the work in cabinet positions are done by lower level bureaucratic officials.

Edit - Ninjaed more times than Daredevil written by Frank Miller.

Edited by Hodor2 on Dec 18th 2020 at 7:36:20 AM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#344031: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:38:55 PM

Sanders stated that he was interested in becoming Secretary of Labor earlier in the year, but I don't think it was a serious call since he didn't push especially hard for it, and also it's not considered to be an especially influential Cabinet position anyway.

I don't think Warren has explicitly mentioned interest in joining the Cabinet either, but then again Biden mentioned her value in the Senate pretty early on after her concession so she probably knew there was no value in trying.

Things might've been different had we been able to do a Blue Wave in the Senate, but we didn't.

Edited by AlleyOop on Dec 18th 2020 at 8:39:58 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344032: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:40:27 PM

Oh I see, this isn’t about implementing leftist policy ideas or improving the lives of the working class, it’s about the almighty Sanders.

Screw that.

My leftist views predate my knowledge of Sanders and they will last long after he has left politics. Sanders is not some holy grail of progressivism, he is a single individual who has helped make some great strides. Allegiance to Bernie Sanders is not required to be a progressive or a leftist, the ideology and set of beliefs are bigger than him.

Amusingly enough I’m pretty sure Bernie understands that, some of his fans sadly do not.

Again, change is the key word here. If Biden does not meaningfully change the conditions of America or at least tries to, then he has failed both leftists and progressives.

Do you not see how laughable his statement is when combined with your instance that Democrats surrender possible senate control just to but Bernie in the cabinet?

Edited by Silasw on Dec 18th 2020 at 1:41:52 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#344033: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:42:12 PM

Alley has it. Had the Democrats taken the Maine, Iowa, and North Carolina (fuck you Cunningham) seats, we could deal with interim Republican appointments. But no there is literally no room for error. Or even bad luck really...

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#344034: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:44:16 PM

@Alley Oop -

Oh yeah, I remember that and I was amenable towards the idea. He would seem like a good fit and I am relatively positive towards the idea of rewarding losing candidates who endorse. Congratulations Mayor Transportation Secretary Pete.

But once I (and I bet Sanders himself) considered his replacement would be appointed by a Republican, the costs of outweigh of him outweigh the benefits.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344035: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:44:36 PM

Oh and to add to what I already said.

there's no wide-spread plan to enhance the rights of the working class that I can see in the works.

So you seriously don’t consider the most progressive Democrat platform in history to be a “wide-spread plan to enhance the rights of the working class”?

Edited by Silasw on Dec 18th 2020 at 1:45:01 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#344036: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:44:54 PM

I'd like Sanders in the cabinet as much as the next guy, but that's comfortable Senate majority talk. As it stands, let's wait and see who he picks for labor secretary and then maybe tear him apart for that.

djoki996 Since: Dec, 2018
#344037: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:45:32 PM

Okay, I'm getting confused. When people say leftist here, what do they mean? Because Sanders is left-leaning, center left at best. Majority of Democrats, Biden included, are not even that. And I've seen people here claiming that Democrats are leftists.

TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#344038: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:47:13 PM

[up]The US Overton Window is fucked, so it's leftist in the context of Democrats as a whole vs further left progressives like Bernie.

Makir Since: Feb, 2017
#344039: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:47:30 PM

I'll admit I misspoke when I mentioned Sanders. I hope I didn't come off too hard as a Bernie-Or-Buster.

I think that my initial point still stands, however. For many, especially leftists, Biden has been a "Ugh, fine." candidate at best, a strategic candidate for the lesser of two evils to win.

Biden reversing the Trump executive orders ASAP? Great! But what about the other things Americans care about, like healthcare and police reform, and a government that doesn't kowtow to multinationals and oil companies? I guess we'll see.

"So you seriously don’t consider the most progressive Democrat platform in history to be a “wide-spread plan to enhance the rights of the working class”? "

What platform? What actual policies did Biden or associates propose that would do that? Not a sarcastic question, I'd love to actually know.

Edited by Makir on Dec 18th 2020 at 2:50:02 PM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344040: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:50:07 PM

I think bringing back Robert Reich might be an idea. He was Labour Secretary for 4 years under Clinton (so knows the department), he’s the person who started calling out cooperate welfare (popularising the term), in 2002 he came out in support of gay marriage (the first gubernatorial candidate to do so), in 2016 he endorsed Bernie, he’s pro-union, pro-UBI and in 2020 did a double endorsement of Bernie and Warren.

Okay, I'm getting confused. When people say leftist here, what do they mean?

I mean people on the left of the Democratic Party, using the term in a non-relative sense isn’t helpful, because political positions are actually much mroe complicated than a 1 dimensional line.

Edited by Silasw on Dec 18th 2020 at 1:51:53 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#344041: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:50:08 PM

A lot of that depends on what gets past Congress. And the Supreme Court.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344042: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:57:40 PM

I hope I didn't come off too hard as a Bernie-Or-Buster.

It did, and combined with you being a new voice here and acting as if you speaking for all leftists (I’ll note that I’ve been a literal card-carrying socialist since 15 and grew up partly in an anarcho-democratic school, so I’m as leftist as they come) it makes it hard to assume you’re debating in good faith.

What platform? What actual policies did Biden or associates propose that would do that?

The $15 federal minimum wage would be a big one. But seriously, you’re claiming Biden has no plan then admitting to not having read his platform? Do you see why I’m having trouble here?

If you want to argue that Biden’s platform isn’t transformative enough I’m happy to listen. But you’ve just claimed that Biden doesn’t have a wide-spread plan to enhance things, then admitted to not having read his plan!

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#344043: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:59:50 PM

On a related note, Biden just chose Deb Haaland, a progressive pick for Department of the Interior.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344044: Dec 18th 2020 at 6:04:31 PM

That’s official now? Good, first native-American to lead the department I believe, hopefully her personal experience will enable her to make the department act more fairly towards native tribes and groups.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#344045: Dec 18th 2020 at 6:08:01 PM

Though it's to be expected, there are a bunch of cries of "identity politics" and "picked without regard to qualifications" as there have been with basically any female and/or not-white picks.

I know those aren't being made in good-faith but it still chafes how people don't even consider how "identity" can be a qualifications in cases like this as [up] said.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344046: Dec 18th 2020 at 6:18:29 PM

A basic principle of democracy is that the people being governed should be the ones doing the governing (if at times by representatives), that’s why people in Florida don’t vote for governor of New York, it’s why you often require legislatures to be resident in their district, it’s why you have to be a US citizen to run for president.

The Department of the Interior has massive power to govern native Americans, it follows basic Democratic principles to have a Native American governing the department, same way we’d want a teacher in charge of the department of education of someone with military experience in charge of the department of defence.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#344047: Dec 18th 2020 at 6:19:03 PM

Deb Haaland is also part of the more progressive wing of the party (endorsed Elizabeth Warren for President) and seems to be someone every Democrat is getting behind. Hell, even Rep. Don Young put out a statement of support.

[up][up] I guess not everyone, then. Ugh - is it the usual bad-faith actors?

Edited by nova92 on Dec 18th 2020 at 6:20:18 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#344048: Dec 18th 2020 at 6:22:40 PM

[up]The people I'm talking about (presumably) aren't Democrats.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#344049: Dec 18th 2020 at 6:30:34 PM

The laws regarding Native Americans in America are completely asinine from beginning to end. They should have their own self-rule and nation to nation status as well as citizenship in the United States but every administration just seems happy to shit on this fundamental principle. The blood quantum laws that they currently operate under are a slow form of genocide too.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Imca (Veteran)
#344050: Dec 18th 2020 at 6:33:02 PM

Okay, I'm getting confused. When people say leftist here, what do they mean? Because Sanders is left-leaning, center left at best. Majority of Democrats, Biden included, are not even that. And I've seen people here claiming that Democrats are leftists.

The US Overton Window is fucked, so it's leftist in the context of Democrats as a whole vs further left progressives like Bernie.

No democrats ARE a left wing party, and the myth that they are not is one that needs to fucking die.

Infact there right in the damn middle of all the European Left parties as far as that goes, not the leftest of the left, but not to the right of Western Europe either

The idea that western Europe is some kind of liberal wonderland compared to the democrats is just... baffling, and goes in the face of almost all empirical evidence.

The problem is that the Republicans actually have power, and stop the Democrats from actualy implimenting any thing.

Edited by Imca on Dec 18th 2020 at 6:33:54 AM


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