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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#344001: Dec 18th 2020 at 1:01:26 PM

[up][up]I think that was before he turned rightwards.

EDIT: Never mind. [down] Thanks for pointing that out.

Edited by clemont107 on Dec 18th 2020 at 4:07:15 AM

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#344003: Dec 18th 2020 at 1:22:54 PM

Haven't found an article that isn't hard paywalled, but we now know where half of Trump's 1.2 billion dollar warchest went.

Kushner setup a shell company and paid ~614 million to Trump family members, according to Business Insider.

I really hope state laws were broken here, but knee capping your own campaign to make a buck is so brand for Clan Trump.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#344004: Dec 18th 2020 at 2:08:18 PM

I've done my part to get a Blue senate, hopefully, it will be as consequential as my vote for Biden.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Dec 18th 2020 at 2:08:35 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#344006: Dec 18th 2020 at 2:12:13 PM

Nope, I had been waiting around half an hour so I just delivered my ballot and walked out.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Dec 18th 2020 at 2:12:30 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#344007: Dec 18th 2020 at 2:22:41 PM

I really hope state laws were broken here, but knee capping your own campaign to make a buck is so brand for Clan Trump.

Country. You misspelled the word "Country". Not "Campaign".

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344008: Dec 18th 2020 at 2:42:23 PM

Nah it’s campaign money they stole in this instance, so if anything they helped the country by reducing his chance of winning.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#344009: Dec 18th 2020 at 2:51:23 PM

Kushner was a law student and graduate of NYU who was able to buy the New York Observer at the age of 25 in 2006. Maybe that's why Donald is relying on him for everything business-related.

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#344010: Dec 18th 2020 at 3:05:31 PM

Kushner comes from money himself. Doesn't take a genius for your parents to ensure you a spot in a top university with the right donation.

singularityshot Since: Dec, 2012
#344011: Dec 18th 2020 at 3:10:43 PM

I suppose my question is "what does a good faith attempt at bipartisan lawmaking even look like in the current political setting?"

I mean, our discussion of it is being framed in terms of "this tactic of attempted bipartisanship will hopefully help us in the 2022 election" suggests that we suspect that any efforts by the Democrats are ultimately not in good faith; so we really shouldn't be surprised if the Republicans come to the same conclusions.

I don't think there is enough common ground to try anything remotely contentious like health care reform. Nor is there enough trust to work behind closed doors and thrash out a compromise that the Republicans won't immediately regress on.

The only thing I can think of is to actually implement Infrastructure week. Make it clear that whilst there would be an emphasis towards green and sustainable development, nothing would be off the table. Such that the only reason why a given state would not benefit is if the congresspersons from that state refuse to get involved.

Yes, it's pork barrel politics. But if you can't get agreement on the federal government funding projects that congresspersons could take personal credit for then there is no point trying anything else. This is the bare minimum that Congress should be able to pass in a bipartisan fashion. Maybe if it works we can build upon this foundation but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#344012: Dec 18th 2020 at 3:10:50 PM

From today's WTF Just Happened Today:

The Supreme Court dismissed a lawsuit against the Trump administration’s plans to exclude undocumented immigrants from the final census count. The unsigned opinion said it would be “premature” to rule on the case, because it is “riddled with contingencies and speculation” and that the Trump administration doesn’t know how many undocumented immigrants there are or where they live. It’s not clear, however, if Trump will receive final numbers from the Census Bureau before he leaves office next month. The census is used to determine how many members of Congress each state gets in the House of Representatives.

https://www.npr.org/2020/12/18/946875796/supreme-court-punts-in-census-case-says-its-premature-to-decide-the-issue

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#344013: Dec 18th 2020 at 3:36:18 PM

I mean, our discussion of it is being framed in terms of "this tactic of attempted bipartisanship will hopefully help us in the 2022 election" suggests that we suspect that any efforts by the Democrats are ultimately not in good faith; so we really shouldn't be surprised if the Republicans come to the same conclusions.

This doesn't work on two levels.

Firstly, you're conflating this thread with the Democratic Party. Even if we just wanted to fuck the Republicans over that would not say anything about Biden's motivations.

Furthermore, that's not what we mean when we say it may help us later. Most of us if not all of us would accept compromises if they meant getting things done. But we rightfully know that Republicans aren't going to do it because they're awful, that's not bad faith it's just understanding reality.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#344014: Dec 18th 2020 at 3:43:00 PM

[up][up] It'd be a special kind of irony if excluding immigrants led to Republican states losing Representatives in the House, or no change at all.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Dec 18th 2020 at 6:43:29 AM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#344015: Dec 18th 2020 at 3:48:07 PM

I mean, our discussion of it is being framed in terms of "this tactic of attempted bipartisanship will hopefully help us in the 2022 election" suggests that we suspect that any efforts by the Democrats are ultimately not in good faith; so we really shouldn't be surprised if the Republicans come to the same conclusions.

It's not really about a lack of good faith on the democrats' part, but rather an acknowledgment of two things.

The first being that the GOP isn't really a party that wants to work in good faith with the democrats anymore. Even if some of them want to (and honestly I could buy that for a handful of them), they are ultimately hamstrung by their own base that demands more and more extremism. When you get to the level that your voters will literally not accept anything but their guy winning as legitimate and scandals and conspiracy theories have to be fabricated to justify a loss, then there's not a whole lot you can do short term.

The second is that unfortunately, most people are low information voters and they really only care much about the surface or appearance of something rather than what it actually is. The GOP and the right-wing media establishment have conditioned the GOP base to accept pretty much anything, so they have a fair amount of leeway to be hypocrites and do objectionable things as long as they "stick it" to the people the GOP base doesn't like. But the democrats don't really have the benefit of that because they have a much more diverse voterbase so they have to juggle a lot of balls at once, and they unfortunately get subjected to a double standard where they're expected to take the high ground continuously, thusly they have to care at least somewhat about how things appear on a surface level because that's the only thing many people will look at.

So generally, actions that make the democrats appear reasonable and bipartisan but without actually compromising anything substantial or giving the GOP any real ground are beneficial.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Dec 18th 2020 at 9:01:10 AM

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#344016: Dec 18th 2020 at 3:51:02 PM

Something that is missed in this conversation about bipartisanship is that Republicans have no incentive to participate in it and attempts to shame them for being partisan have never been effective, particularly not when they are they opposition.

I don't understand why people keep defending Biden's position as necessary, when history tells us that Republicans will only respond top complete capitulation, not compromise.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344017: Dec 18th 2020 at 4:11:14 PM

People are defending Biden’s position because they view his position as “we must do the political theatre of wanting bipartisanship so as to sway public opinion” rather than “we must compromise with the GOP and surrender to them like Obama often did”.

I don’t think anyone has defended the later position, just said that they think Biden is taking the former position.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Imca (Veteran)
#344018: Dec 18th 2020 at 4:13:22 PM

Correct, because that's what he himself has said

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#344019: Dec 18th 2020 at 4:29:55 PM

[up][up]Perhaps I am being overly cynical, but I think that the latter view is at least partially Biden and at least a few other moderate Democrat's genuine view, which is why I think that defending Biden's political statements is at best misguided.

Makir Since: Feb, 2017
#344020: Dec 18th 2020 at 4:54:19 PM

Here's the thing:

Biden isn't a progressive

Biden isn't a leftist

If you're either of those things, you have very real reasons to disagree or even dislike him. Now that Trump's history (and by Jove I don't want to see his dumb face for at least another 4 years) it doesn't mean that you can go to brunch if you want meaningful change in America.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344021: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:00:57 PM

I strongly disagree with that, Biden isn’t a conservative, he’s not particularly ideological at all, he’s not got some fixed ideal version of the world that’s different from that of progressives, because he doesn’t have a fixed ideal version of the world.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Makir Since: Feb, 2017
#344022: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:04:27 PM

^ I never claimed he's a conservative. Not having an ideology can be just as bad as being too into an ideology, especially if you're a politician. "Not being particularly ideological" as a politician means you're part of the status quo, which progressives and leftists are, by varying degrees, against.

So I'll say it once more with even more conviction: Biden is not a progressive, he's not a leftist, and people with beliefs in either camps have real reasons to disagree with him and dislike him.

Edited by Makir on Dec 18th 2020 at 2:05:00 PM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#344023: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:12:23 PM

There's a difference being not having an ideology and being a centrist. Centrists have a specific agenda, whereas people who have no ideology do not. Centrism is not nihilism.

I would typically call Biden a progressive, though I typically think of progressivism as centrist ideology rather than a leftist one.

It is accurate to say that Biden is not the most leftist candidate and is a rather moderate pick. If you're a leftist or more left of him, this is a legitimate complaint. Personally, I'm not a leftist, so I'm actually pretty happy with Biden specifically because he's not very left-leaning.

Leviticus 19:34
Makir Since: Feb, 2017
#344024: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:15:52 PM

"I would typically call Biden a progressive, though I typically think of progressivism as centrist ideology rather than a leftist one."

Well that's just...wrong. Progressivism and leftism have always gone hand-in-hand. A lot of Civil Rights activists were socialists or socialist-leaning for a banal example. You can be progressive without being a full-on socialist (and vice versa), but to say that progressivism isn't left-leaning is not really accurate.

Also I'd argue not having an ideology and 'going with the political flow' as a politician is just being a Centrist with extra steps, the results are the same.

Edited by Makir on Dec 18th 2020 at 2:17:30 PM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#344025: Dec 18th 2020 at 5:19:09 PM

"Not being particularly ideological" as a politician means you're part of the status quo,

No it means you’re mailable, it means you’re not fixed, you’ll go with the flow. If the flow of political discourse is regressive then you’ll support regressive policies, if it’s conservative you’ll support conservative policies, if it’s progressive then you’ll support progressive ideologies.

Biden currently supports progressive policies and ideas (because that’s the direction of the Democratic Party), so I see no reason for people who hold such beliefs to dislike him right now. Sure consider him a fair-weather friend, but I don’t accept this weird insistence that Leftists should dislike Biden when he’s currently allied with them.

Also I'd argue not having an ideology and 'going with the political flow' as a politician is just being a Centrist with extra steps, the results are the same.

Biden just ran on the most progressive Democratic platform ever (because that’s the direction of the party), how the hell is that “the same” as him being an ideological centrist?

Edited by Silasw on Dec 18th 2020 at 1:20:56 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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