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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#342476: Dec 8th 2020 at 7:58:43 AM

Different topic: General question for all of you, if an elected official/someone running for office has pushed anti-vax/vaccines-cause-autism/vaccine-skeptical rhetoric in the past, is there a timeframe for when that becomes a deal-breaker?

Like, I think I'd be understanding if someone in the 90s, in the early days after the bogus study, was cautious about vaccines or wanted more research, but similar rhetoric today would be an instant-no from me. Do you guys have a cutoff time?

Edited by nova92 on Dec 8th 2020 at 8:00:47 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#342477: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:00:46 AM

I edited my posts to be less hostile, obviously, I don't wish harm on anyone just because they celebrate Christmas, and the pandemic is horrifying, it just sucks being a Jew living in a country that claims to be secular but every December feels like it's trying to out-do the last one in rubbing Christmas in my face at every turn, especially when it's mixed in with people complaining that it's not Christmas-y enough.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 8th 2020 at 9:03:26 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#342478: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:01:16 AM

I would imagine it depends on if they're still espousing anti-vaxx sentiments and/or are taking actions that go against their previous beliefs.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#342479: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:05:04 AM

If it's recent enough that there's valid reason to believe they still believe it while they're running for office, it's a deal-breaker.

If it's something they said a decade ago, I'd at least check to see if they recanted in the past decade.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#342480: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:06:22 AM

In general, I would say that "Person did X in the 70's/80's/90's and therefore that's their TRUE beliefs!" is a line of argument that needs to end.

People's opinions change. Sometimes people learn that the really misogynistic shit they believed in their 20's or 30's was actually terrible. Sometimes vocal civil rights advocates get a taste of success and turn corrupt. My mom was an dedicated feminist activist in the 70's and now she's a greedy Fuck You Got Mine capitalist loyal only to her bank account.

But sometimes opinions don't change.

So the best way to determine what someone believes on a subject is to listen to what they're saying now. It might turn out that they're only paying lip service but here's the thing: whether you support LGBT rights because you believe in it or you support LGBT rights because you think it's your ticket to power, it's still support for LGBT rights. If you're passing laws that benefit LGBT equality, does it really matter what you hold in your heart of hearts?

Similarly, supporting white supremacy is supporting white supremacy, no matter what your REAL TRUE PERSONAL reason for doing it is.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 8th 2020 at 8:07:32 AM

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DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#342481: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:06:38 AM

[up][up][up][up] Secular just means there's no state religion. But a lot of western countries' culture is heavily influenced by Christianity, so of course a Christian holoidy would be more prominent.

Though I have to point out that most of the public stuff going on with Christmas has very little to do with Christianity in general, like that overweight dude in the red coat or the ridiculous consumerism.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Dec 8th 2020 at 5:06:50 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#342482: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:07:46 AM

Also, Christmas is a state multi-religious and nonreligious cultural holiday

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Dec 8th 2020 at 8:07:55 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#342483: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:08:48 AM

Eh, a lot of people who call out the Republican party for the hypocrites they are but then go "both sides" when a Democrat calls them out on it weren't going to vote for Democrats anyway. I don't really give a shit about the Trump's arm candy who had a lackluster modelling career, I just wish Republicans still had their old standards were merely saying "Fuck Christmas" was enough of a scandal to be on all the conservative papers and make electing them as a Republican candidate impossible.

@Pushovermediacritic: I get why one wouldn't like Christmas and especially the war on Christmas. But isn't a lot of that stuff able to be ignored. Especially in the lockdown? I'm an essential worker so I have to hear Christmas music all day, but I don't have to look at all the decorations and everything. Plus my town has a display that includes a Menorah too so at least it isn't all about Christianity.

Edited by Wildcard on Dec 8th 2020 at 11:12:25 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#342484: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:08:58 AM

In the interest of levity, here's internet comedian Ryan George inventing modern Christmas celebrations.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 8th 2020 at 8:09:22 AM

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#342485: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:09:18 AM

[up][up][up]No, it isn't. Christmas is Christian, you are buying into Christian propaganda by saying it's not necessarily the case. Christian is not the "default", any more than being white or male is.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 8th 2020 at 9:11:22 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#342486: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:10:49 AM

So what are atheists who buy Christmas holiday decorations and presents doing?

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#342487: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:11:38 AM

Buying Christian propaganda.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#342488: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:12:12 AM

Also, last I checked my Bible, consumerism wasn't a central tenet of Christianity.

Which is what most of the public affair of Christmas is centered around.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#342489: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:12:12 AM

Er, probably appeasing their family or do it because of family tradition?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#342490: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:16:08 AM

Christmas is Christian propaganda, inherently so. You can't separate the two. The effort to normalize it as a non-Christian thing everyone celebrates is the same as Republican efforts to normalize their own horrible acts as just things all politicians do.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 8th 2020 at 9:16:55 AM

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#342491: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:16:56 AM

I mean, I like Christmas. The decorations, some of the music, the holiday specials, (including from reviews and sketch comedians like that Ryan George bit) but as an Atheist I don't really care about the religious aspect of it. I just like the celebration and gift giving.

[up]I'm sorry, I get that your reasons for disliking it and will not critique that opinion.

Edited by Wildcard on Dec 8th 2020 at 11:18:04 AM

TitanJump Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Singularity
#342492: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:17:20 AM

Christmas lost its meaning when capitalism and consumerism devoured the holiday to whatever it is supposed to be today.

Which is why the most precious present anyone can ever give at this point and this day, is the time you are willing to spend with your loved ones without expecting anything in return for it.

That, is worth more than any gift one can "buy" with money.

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#342493: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:20:13 AM

@Tobias: Oh yeah, he also did one this year about Christmas songs! Though you might wanna put a warning on that video you embedded for all the Uncanny Valley effect that one character gives off.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#342494: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:20:31 AM

[up][up][up][up]

....

Okay, I'm just gonna repeat what I already said. Christmas, while originally being a Christian holiday has been thoroughly commodified over the years, to the point where it's more of a cultural than a religious thing.

Of course, a lot of countries' culture is heavily informed by said countries' Christian heritage, but that doesn't mean the consumerist spectactle that is Christmas these days is "Christian propaganda".

Which is also why American religious conservatives whining about people "taking Christ out of Christmas" is so ridiculous - because that happened a long time ago anyway. Those people wish modern Christmas was Christian propaganda - well, their interpretation of Christian, which I'm personally loathe to even classify as such.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Dec 8th 2020 at 5:22:06 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#342495: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:23:48 AM

The difficulty is that I'm having trouble finding out what their positions are now. They haven't, from what I've Googled so far, publicly recanted what they said in the past, but they also haven't said anything vaccine-skeptical in public recently.

Part of the trouble is, especially with vaccines, a lot of skeptics phrase it in ways that leave lots of wiggle room, like "oh, of course I support vaccines except in extraordinary cases," except while for most people, 'extraordinary cases' means people who cannot be vaccinated due to medical reasons, these people mean "anyone who thinks vaccines are bad".

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#342496: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:24:01 AM

It's not just that I don't like it, it's that Christmas was created and popularized for the purpose of making Christianity more universal and to wipe out all other religions. Even other religions that still celebrate Christmas are then considered "sub-sections" of Christianity. Did you all seriously not know about this? Wiping out or consuming all other religions has been Christianity's goal for centuries, Christmas is just one of the more recent tools for accomplishing this.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 8th 2020 at 9:24:50 AM

Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#342497: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:24:02 AM

Honestly, wouldn't Christmas be more Roman propaganda? It was a pagan celebration that was stolen by Christians after all.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#342498: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:25:29 AM

Yes, it was stolen by Christians for the purpose of destroying that pagan religion.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 8th 2020 at 9:27:18 AM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#342499: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:25:32 AM

[up][up]

From what I recall, this is an awfully reductive interpretation of what happened, partly because it's heavily rooted in the whole "Christianity bad, paganism good" mindset that's been propagated by some people (who also blame Christianity for "ruining the Roman Empire").

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Dec 8th 2020 at 5:25:53 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
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#342500: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:25:43 AM

[up][up]If Christianity as defined pre-commerialization of the holiday is also one of the religions the wiping out of which is the goal, then I can see your case.

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