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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#342101: Dec 3rd 2020 at 11:26:52 AM

[up]x3 Is there really such thing as a "pre-emptive pardon"? I thought you couldn't be pardoned if you weren't charged with anything to begin with.

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#342102: Dec 3rd 2020 at 11:31:40 AM

[up]Again, Nixon. Nixon hadn't been charged with anything before Ford pardoned him, because he almost certainly would have been otherwise. There's enough precedent that Trump could easily do it and any half-competent lawyer could successfully argue his ability to do so. Pardoning himself is another matter.

Edited by TheRoguePenguin on Dec 3rd 2020 at 11:33:15 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#342103: Dec 3rd 2020 at 11:34:02 AM

And pardons still don't protect from state level charges, only federal.

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#342104: Dec 3rd 2020 at 11:41:15 AM

That gets repeated rather often, but when have they respected the rule of law?

Wake me up at your own risk.
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#342105: Dec 3rd 2020 at 11:42:18 AM

[up]That's what the law system is for: to make sure others do when they flagrantly defy it.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#342106: Dec 3rd 2020 at 11:42:46 AM

Remember, Conservatism relies on there being an in-group that the Law protects but does not bind, and an out-group that the Law binds but does not protect.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#342107: Dec 3rd 2020 at 11:43:05 AM

[up]x3 As can be seen with both Democrats and Republicans with regards to social distancing rules, high-ranking officials generally don't respect the rules. And they almost always get away with it. It's nothing new.

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#342108: Dec 3rd 2020 at 11:43:25 AM

Considering how shortsighted he is, I don't doubt the only person to be surprised will be Trump when state level charges get brought up against him.

Just imagine how ballistic his followers will go when they see Trump dragged out in front of a court.

TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#342109: Dec 3rd 2020 at 11:46:44 AM

Oh, Trump knows. That's why he desperately wants to stay president. All those debts and outstanding litigation are going to come crashing down on him when his term ends, and he's terrified.

singularityshot Since: Dec, 2012
#342110: Dec 3rd 2020 at 11:58:11 AM

I think he knows about his legal exposure - let's not forget, he's already had to settle on Trump University and close down the Trump Foundation.

What I'm less certain on is if he thinks that he is out of the reach of NY prosecutors because he changed his residence to Florida. That could be a rude awakening for him.

ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#342111: Dec 3rd 2020 at 12:04:33 PM

Its more likely that he changed residences to try and hide/protect what assets he has left of value that haven't been mortgaged to the hilt. However he's not the first guy to try that stunt and if the various State Lawyers can prove that the residential move was to hide assets that protection can be revoked and the assets are now fair game.

nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#342112: Dec 3rd 2020 at 12:23:28 PM

There really should be some limits to this ridiculous Presidential pardon power. What's stopping some insane POTUS from future-pardoning an entire segment of the populace for all federal crimes.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#342113: Dec 3rd 2020 at 12:28:24 PM

Well, a few things: first, Pardons don't cover crimes that haven't been committed yet. Second, pardons are specific and individual- they excuse one individual for one particular crime. Third, pardons tend to be politically unpopular, which is why presidents traditionally wait until their lame duck period before heavily using them.

But, really, the thing that you fundamentally can't mount a defence against 'there's an insane person in power and nobody's inclined to reign them in'. Any check or balance you can come up with has to be enforced by people, so if those people aren't inclined to enforce the rules, not much can be done.

Edited by Gilphon on Dec 3rd 2020 at 3:31:12 PM

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#342114: Dec 3rd 2020 at 12:39:52 PM

Is the President's ability to pardon written in the constitution? Where does it say they can do that, and how hard a thing is this to change?

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#342115: Dec 3rd 2020 at 12:45:36 PM

"The pardon powers of the President are based on Article Two of the United States Constitution (Section 2, Clause 1), which provides: The President ... shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of impeachment"

Google

> and how hard a thing is this to change?

It would require an amendment,which means makes damn near impossible

Edited by Ultimatum on Dec 3rd 2020 at 8:50:20 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#342116: Dec 3rd 2020 at 1:01:38 PM

Hypothetically, Congress could pass laws circumscribing the pardon power, but those would undoubtedly have to stand up to Supreme Court scrutiny. You can imagine where that would go in the current environment.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#342117: Dec 3rd 2020 at 1:16:13 PM

And Technically Nixon had already been impeached (which is an indication of guilt) before Ford pardoned him. He just resigned before the Senate Trial and after he had been told that there were going to be enough votes to remove him from office. The Pardon was for the items that he had been accused of in the House Impeachment, and I *think* any other crimes connected to those *specific* charges. If they found evidence of a crime Nixon committed that wasn't related to Watergate then he could be charged but nothing connected TO Watergate...IIRC

I don't think Trump can give a blanket pre-emptive pardon as protection against any and all federal crimes he and his family committed while he was in office, that is WAY TO BROAD and would give carte blanc permission for any future Democrat to pull the same stunts, or an even WORSE Trump 2.0 whomever that may be.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#342118: Dec 3rd 2020 at 1:24:30 PM

No he hadn't been impeached. He was going to be, but he resigned before that could take place.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#342119: Dec 3rd 2020 at 1:25:27 PM

[up]

Yeah, that's going to run headlong into some odd theorizing that hasn't really been trod (at least that I'm aware of). If, however, those specific people who are asking for Pardons go to a Federal authority and confess their crimes and ask to be arrested, then Trump could unambiguously issue a Pardon for their criminal activity. But activity that has not yet been brought to light? That's some murky water.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#342120: Dec 3rd 2020 at 1:35:40 PM

The disappointing thing is T****sters will just say "Well this is a defense against Democrats arresting them for no reason" and keep cheering on Dear Leader.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#342121: Dec 3rd 2020 at 1:37:16 PM

A pardon has to be somewhat specific. Trump can't go "I pardon everything my kids did," he has to specify what they did.

TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#342122: Dec 3rd 2020 at 1:51:46 PM

Not really. I hate to beat a dead horse here, but read Ford's pardon of Nixon. No mention of specific crimes, just a blanket pardon over a set period of time.

Edited by TheRoguePenguin on Dec 3rd 2020 at 1:52:14 AM

astrokitty Happiness is a cup of tea from Somewhere Out There Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Happiness is a cup of tea
#342123: Dec 3rd 2020 at 1:51:49 PM

[up][up]Can he only pardon one thing they did, or can he just list out everything they did and pardon all of it?

Edited by astrokitty on Dec 3rd 2020 at 4:51:58 AM

Somebody once told me the world was macaroni, I took a bite out of a tree
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#342124: Dec 3rd 2020 at 1:53:21 PM

I think [up][up] answers that question.

Edited by Parable on Dec 3rd 2020 at 1:53:36 AM

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#342125: Dec 3rd 2020 at 1:56:10 PM

[up]

The thing is, Nixon was formally accused of a certain action, and the Pardon applied to that action and other criminal acts in relation to it - I'm not sure it would pass legal muster if even the accusation is absent.

For example, if Nixon had also, say, committed a hit-and-run (impossible since Presidents are literally not allowed to drive themselves) during that period, I don't think the Pardon could reasonably have been applied to that action. But then again, it could also be a case of Ain't No Rule, so I'm sure legal scholars will be having a field day with this hypothetical.

Edited by ironballs16 on Dec 3rd 2020 at 5:01:36 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"

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