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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#341776: Nov 30th 2020 at 8:49:06 AM

[up] Hard no. "Good behaviour" or not, mass murderers should not be allowed to get out again.

At some point, the Moral Event Horizon has passed.

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#341777: Nov 30th 2020 at 8:54:38 AM

Imprisonment should serve two purposes: rehabilitation and prevention of recidivism. Punishment is a moral goal that has surprisingly little real social value. This is getting into a much broader argument than can be served by this topic, however.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#341778: Nov 30th 2020 at 8:56:12 AM

Do we have a topic for it?

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#341779: Nov 30th 2020 at 8:56:13 AM

If a mass murderer has been in jail for a few decades, and due to extensive therapy they've really, truly changed who they are are a person, they're regretful and remorseful of their actions, and they genuinely want to contribute to society again... I don't know, if they're essentially a different person from who they were, is it right to keep them imprisoned?

It is possible for people to change that drastically, we've seen it happen here and there. Obviously, they would still be kept under heavy surveillance. I don't know, I get it, but some part of me is still not really okay with keeping someone in a cage their whole life with no chance of freedom, regardless of who they are.

[up][up]Yeah, it should probably be taken somewhere else, but considering Trump wanting to bring back firing squads, it was on-topic for a bit.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 30th 2020 at 9:58:12 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#341780: Nov 30th 2020 at 8:58:00 AM

We have a Death Penalty thread, but I can't find one about general imprisonment and rehabilitation on the first page of OTC at least.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#341781: Nov 30th 2020 at 8:59:43 AM

Well I'll be happy to open up one, if somebody else also wants to continue the discussion.

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clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#341783: Nov 30th 2020 at 9:37:51 AM

Regarding the incremental victories earlier, I feel that Democratic administrations and leaders should use them to their advantage. Already Biden being our next president is a victory in itself. Imagine if T*** had been re-elected.

Surely we don't need large, sweeping, giant-step changes. Small steps forward are better than no steps at all, or even worse, large steps backwards that would have happened if T*** got his "four more years" that his supporters have been chanting non-stop.

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
Lazlo74 from A tropical hell-hole Since: May, 2018
#341784: Nov 30th 2020 at 9:46:43 AM

[up]T... ool?

T***'s cultists are still screaming about massive electoral fraud or at the very least, right-wingers accusing the media other than right-wing mouthpieces of not covering whatever legal fuckery Trump's team is still trying to stick on the wall.

Edited by Lazlo74 on Nov 30th 2020 at 9:49:19 AM

Scaled seeker
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#341785: Nov 30th 2020 at 9:47:27 AM

We do need large, sweeping, giant changes. The problem is, we can't have large, sweeping, giant changes. We don't have the power to achieve them.

Biden can't step into office and start shooting finger guns. "BOOM, all Republican Justices on SCOTUS are fired. BOOM, every state has to repeal voter suppression measures. BOOM, government healthcare and basic income are granted. BOOM, overnight police reform. BOOM, Democrats control the Senate. BOOM, oppressive 'religious liberty' laws gone forever."

As previously noted, the large, sweeping, giant changes are built on a groundwork of smaller changes. This is how it happens because it's the only way it can. You can scream into the void all you want about how important the public option is, but it's only going to happen once enough legislators have been elected who support it.

We live in a democracy. No matter how good a policy may be, it needs to become popular before our government will be willing to engrave it in stone.

And do not forget that the Most-Watched News Network in this country is an organized propaganda campaign against us. A hostile SCOTUS, hostile Senate, and every TV station in America tuned in to FOX News? All of that means we have to fight and scrape, tooth and nail, for even the smallest victories.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 30th 2020 at 9:49:54 AM

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Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#341786: Nov 30th 2020 at 9:55:12 AM

It is unfortunate how slow this process is and how fast Republicans can be. Which is why it is so important to vote. I will admit too, I was wrong about picking Biden as the Democratic candidate gives the election to Trump, he won so apparently either people really hate Trump, or really like Biden so something worked.

On another topic I'm so tired of these pointless lawsuits. Could someone put an order on him that does not allow him to sue at all till January 21st 2021? I know they can't but wishful thinking, he has abused his rights so much he needs some taken away.

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#341787: Nov 30th 2020 at 9:55:29 AM

Large changes are enabled, often, by sharp changes in public opinion, and those can happen comparatively swiftly in response to direct action. The Black Lives Matter protests this summer shifted the Overton Window in weeks - compare the discourse on race and policing now to Obama’s “beer at the White House” response to the cop who arrested Henry Louis Gates. We went from “even the most mild of the criticism of the police is radical” to the centrist position becoming “criticism of the police is normal, there’s definitely a problem of racism in policing, but I’m not sure about abolishing cops entirely” and the progressive/leftist position being police abolition, which wasn’t taken seriously anywhere prior to this summer.

Change can happen fast, but when it does it’s usually in response to real, in-person activism that gets people’s attention. That’s what creates the momentum for legislative changes.

Progressive legislative change does not happen in a vacuum. The people saying “stop pushing so hard, you’re causing controversy” are not on the side of change.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#341788: Nov 30th 2020 at 9:55:39 AM

People who are against incrementalism as a concept come off as dunderheads for that exact reason. Protest all you want, but unless you control the bureaucracy, win elections, and get legislation — any legislation — passed, it doesn't fucking matter. Not fast enough, well, tough shit pal.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#341789: Nov 30th 2020 at 9:57:28 AM

Btw, just read that Biden wants Antony Blinken as Secretary of State.

Not to keen about that one.

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RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#341790: Nov 30th 2020 at 9:58:33 AM

It's looking like everyone's talking past one another here.

One side is criticising the "no, we should only try for and advocate incremental change" attitude.

The other is saying that things can't be done in sweeping changes.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#341791: Nov 30th 2020 at 9:58:39 AM

[up][up]Oh for God's sake, why not?

He's a career State Department man being asked to lead an agency that's severely lacking in technocratic heft.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Nov 30th 2020 at 12:59:03 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#341792: Nov 30th 2020 at 9:58:55 AM

@Forenperser: Any particular reason why? I'm not familiar with him.

Edited by PointMaid on Nov 30th 2020 at 12:59:16 PM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#341793: Nov 30th 2020 at 10:00:23 AM

[up][up] & [up] Several questionable decisions, like supporting the Saudi Arabian-led intervention in Yemen or voicing support towards Erdogan over the Kurds.

Edited by Forenperser on Nov 30th 2020 at 7:01:06 PM

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Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#341794: Nov 30th 2020 at 10:05:11 AM

To be perfectly honest, the main problem to me in terms of getting policy passed doesn't even look like congress or the presidency. It's the senate. It looks like it's getting harder and harder for democrats to gain even the barest of majorities. It might just have been a series of poor decisions these last few years that led to this, but the only way to get anything done that lasts is going to be getting enough of a foothold in certain states so they have a majority with a little breathing room.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#341795: Nov 30th 2020 at 10:05:17 AM

[up][up]Viewing the PKK as a terrorist organization is basically the Western consensus. You're not going to find anyone viable who disagrees. As for the Saudi intervention in Yemen, it's not ideal, but it was a statement made in 2015, when the invasion was just starting out, had bipartisan support in the US government, and the full measure of Saudi crimes hadn't yet become headline news. I would wait for his Senate testimony before writing him off.

The fact is, though, that the State Department is gutted and we need an agency lifer at the helm more than we necessary need the right result on every litmus test. If there were alternatives, fine, but there really isn't much of a diplomatic pedigree in the US anymore. If he wasn't so satisfied with retirement, my personal choice would have been Career Ambassador William Joseph Burns, Secretary Kerry's old deputy and the very definition of a State Department lifer, with the added bonus of not being personally tied to any specific Obama era foreign policy initiative.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Nov 30th 2020 at 1:11:46 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#341796: Nov 30th 2020 at 10:15:16 AM

Probably worth noting that Blinken has been publicly calling for withdrawing support from Saudi Arabia's war in Yemen for years now.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#341797: Nov 30th 2020 at 10:25:12 AM

I'm not writing him off completely, I am just not too keen currently.

Sure, he might surprise me positively, the same way Biden did.

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PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#341798: Nov 30th 2020 at 10:25:22 AM

Speaking of Biden cabinet picks, there's a big stink in some circles over him nominating this Neera Tanden woman for the Office of Budget and Management due to her apparently being a warhawk who opposes Medicare for All, among other things. Anyone know anything about this?

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Nov 30th 2020 at 1:30:43 PM

i'm tired, my friend
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#341799: Nov 30th 2020 at 10:37:19 AM

The last big article I saw on her was that a Republican senator was loudly declaring he will kill her nomination. They hate her especially for some reason.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#341800: Nov 30th 2020 at 10:37:58 AM

Typical Bernie Bro invective. She was a Clinton inner circle type who's against Medicare for All as formulated in 2018 and 2019 by the Bernie and Warren campaigns, so obviously she's a neoliberal shill.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

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