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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#341626: Nov 29th 2020 at 11:43:52 AM

I also don't agree that there is anything sacred about life, in as much as I lack any religious or spiritual belief to base such an opinion on.

Obama also touched on this in the speech he gave that I linked to.

When you live in a pluralistic society, it isn't really sufficient to base your arguments on theological grounds. You have to make arguments on a general basis that will be acceptable to people of all faiths, or those with no faith at all. I can at least engage with an argument about the value of life in a general sense, but as an atheist any spiritual direction that argument takes will fall flat to me.

To that point, is late-term abortion even common? Like, in the states that allow it, does it even happen that much?

Late term abortions make up a minority of abortions in the US but it also depends on how late you define late. A 2014 report by CDC claims that only 1.3 of abortions in 2014 were performed at 21 weeks in or later.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Nov 29th 2020 at 4:46:54 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#341627: Nov 29th 2020 at 12:03:14 PM

I also don't agree that there is anything sacred about life, in as much as I lack any religious or spiritual belief to base such an opinion on.

If you lack spiritual and religious belief, the highest authority to determining sacredness is man and no less important or divine for it. Consciousness by itself becomes a universal truth as it is the universe becoming aware of itself.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#341628: Nov 29th 2020 at 12:04:01 PM

I don't have the studies on hand, but late-term abortions are extremely rare and almost always done under duress from health complications or severe external threat of some kind. They're basically a boogeyman for evangelicals.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#341629: Nov 29th 2020 at 12:09:28 PM

While for women it can take a while to decide on the abortion from an emotional/moral standpoint, in a broad sense I imagine most would want to do the abortion as early as possible anyway since the later it gets the more complicated and expensive the procedure is.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#341630: Nov 29th 2020 at 12:11:42 PM

[up][up] Another boogeyman I often encounter is that whole notion that people would just go and get non-stop abortions if it was legal.

Yes, this is an actual argument I had to deal with multiple times. Some people seriously can't get it in their head that abortions generally are a last resort - nobody goes and has one "for funsies" or whatever you're supposed to call that stupid idea.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Nov 29th 2020 at 9:12:16 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#341631: Nov 29th 2020 at 12:14:38 PM

I feel queasy about abortion as concept even if I can rationalize it(such as its usually done before fetus would be able to survive on its own and is still just pile of cells), but I feel really pissed at anti-abortion people because they moralize about it but don't want to provide any alternatives like adoption or give support to parents tongue And either way, it shouldn't be government decision, but the parent's.

And yeah, anti-abortion people who think that people would just get abortions instead of condoms don't seem to realize that doctors would ask questions if same person came multiple times in year to ask for abortions because that would imply something very bad is happening :P People don't just get those for "funsies".

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#341632: Nov 29th 2020 at 12:35:14 PM

And then you have the frustratingly thought-resisting "abortion is murder" idea which you can't do anything with (believe me, I've tried).

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Nov 29th 2020 at 3:35:30 PM

i'm tired, my friend
Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#341633: Nov 29th 2020 at 12:40:40 PM

Yeah, not to mention a reasonably sized amount of women getting abortions happen to be rape victims.

Anti-Abortionists can blather all they like, but a kid born out of rape does tend to end up with a lot of baggage, whether they were adopted or stayed with their biological mother, and that's on top of any issues the mother's trauma passes on, especially if the kid resembles the rapist at all. There's a reason for the trope Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil.

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#341634: Nov 29th 2020 at 12:44:27 PM

[up][up]I mean, that's the classic can of worms about what we define as murder and how much personhood and value we ascribe to a fetus. From the POV of a pro-lifer (or at least, a sizable amount of them) the fetus is already a person, hence murder. It's internally consistent, but it's not an argument I find very persuasive. My own personal view as an atheist is that I do not ascribe much value to a fetus, especially in the early weeks of pregnancy which is where the majority of abortions are done, and especially not when compared to the life of the mother (in a more general sense, as in both the risks of childbirth and also the negative impacts raising a child might have, which is why most women want to get abortions in the first place).

Edited by Draghinazzo on Nov 29th 2020 at 5:45:02 PM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#341635: Nov 29th 2020 at 12:49:27 PM

For what it's worth, I consider my position on abortion pretty orthogonal to my religious beliefs.

Leviticus 19:34
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#341636: Nov 29th 2020 at 12:52:18 PM

The statistics I’ve seen on abortion have about one in five pregnancies being aborted. It’s hard to see how a number could be anything like that high without it functioning as basically emergency birth control. If it was only used as an absolute last resort after everything else failed, it would be a lot less common.

And there’s massive demand for adoption for couples who have fertility problems or otherwise can’t have kids. A baby’s parents being unable to support them, or not wanting a baby, won’t prevent the baby from having a family that does want it. So bearing a child you’re unprepared for isn’t the same as choosing to raise the child.

Edited by Galadriel on Nov 29th 2020 at 3:55:14 PM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#341637: Nov 29th 2020 at 12:53:13 PM

The statistics I’ve seen on abortion have about one in five pregnancies being aborted.

In which country is this?

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#341638: Nov 29th 2020 at 12:56:46 PM

Both the US and Canada - they’re fairly similar in terms of abortion rates (which is why I’m not convinced that sex ed or more access to contraception and health care will meaningfully reduce abortion - Canada has those things to a greater extent than the US, and it hasn’t made a big difference. They’re positive in and of themselves, so I support them, but they don’t appear to make a difference in terms of overall frequency of abortion).

Edited by Galadriel on Nov 29th 2020 at 3:58:00 PM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#341639: Nov 29th 2020 at 1:10:18 PM

There’s a high adoption demand for healthy babies, but that’s not the same thing as adoption demand for children, especially ones with critical health concerns that might lead a parent to consider abortion as an alternative to a short life of suffering.

As for pro-life, I’d draw a distinction between a pro-life individual (who will have their own reasons and their own view on what the label means and why they’ve chosen it) and the pro-life movement (which is opposed to supporting lives outside the womb and fights against contraception).

I’m pro-life (and I mean that in all respects: opposed to abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia outside of very limited circumstances, and most wars, and believing that ending poverty and providing everyone with the necessities of life is more important than protecting the wealth of the rich).

I’m curious, would you support a “duty to intervene” law? It seems the most apt comparison to restricting abortion, as the same way restricting abortion makes women to risk their health to support another life, a requirement to intervene in an emergency would be a similar situation of making people risk their health to protect the lives of others.

Edited by Silasw on Nov 29th 2020 at 9:16:18 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#341640: Nov 29th 2020 at 1:16:33 PM

"All life is sacred!"

"Give 'em the chair!!!!"

~Pro-life people usually

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#341641: Nov 29th 2020 at 1:18:14 PM

My understanding is that severe birth defects that would lead to an extremely short life span are the explanation for a fairly small minority of abortions.

[down]To me the distinction between anti-abortion and “duty to intervene” is between “you cannot kill this person, even if if it is inconvenient/undesirable to you” and “you must save this person”. The bar for demanding a positive action, rather than preventing a negative action, is higher.

I think it’s much more relevant to focus on a lot of other, far more commonly-applicable ways you can mandate people to save the lives of others, such as the principle that people with more money than they could ever reasonably spend have a moral obligation to allow it to be used to provide for people who lack basic necessities. Until such a time as poverty is eliminated, great wealth is immoral.

Edited by Galadriel on Nov 29th 2020 at 4:34:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#341642: Nov 29th 2020 at 1:20:15 PM

I’ll admit that I can’t seem the find statistics even comparing countries very easily, so I’m rather flying blind as to reasons for abortions.

Also I edited my post with another question, in case you only saw the ealriyer version without.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#341643: Nov 29th 2020 at 1:34:46 PM

The most recent stats for Canada I could find rapidly - conducting my own calculations - for Canada were for 2005: 96,815 abortions, compared to 342,176 live births. Combine those two numbers as the denominator, and number of abortions as the numerator, and you’ve got 22% of (non-miscarriage) pregnancies ending in abortions.

Which, to me, simply does not look anything like the kind of rate you’d have if it was being used as a absolute last resort rather than as an alternative to birth control.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#341644: Nov 29th 2020 at 1:37:54 PM

A 22% rate does sound very high, care to share your sources, I’m curious as to if there could be details that help explain things?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#341645: Nov 29th 2020 at 1:44:38 PM

The source for both numbers is Statistics Canada:

Number of induced abortions, 2005: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/82-223-x/82-223-x2008000-eng.pdf?st=J6_39Ddk

Number of births per year: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/cv.action?pid=1310041501

This is the last time Statistics Canada released data on abortion; they stopped in 2006. Here’s the official data for 2018 on the number of abortions for 2018, from the Canadian Institute for Health Information: https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/induced-abortions-reported-in-canada-in-2018-updated-data-tables-en-web.xlsx.

The number of abortions in 2018 was 85,294 (18.5% of pregnancies); the news reports I’ve looked at surmise that the decline is related to the increased availability of pharmaceuticals that enable abortion in the first trimester, meaning the person doesn’t need to go to a hospital or clinic and it isn’t recorded. (I’m on the fence about the morning-after pill - I lean towards being okay for it because by my understanding about half of pregnancies fail to implant under natural circumstances, so it’s not the same situation of “this person is very likely to live if you refrain from killing them”. But I thought it really was morning-after - I wasn’t previously aware of pills that enable abortion several weeks into a pregnancy.)

Edited by Galadriel on Nov 29th 2020 at 5:08:53 AM

Imca (Veteran)
#341646: Nov 29th 2020 at 1:52:21 PM

If you can find the Japanese numbers that would provide a better example of what it looks like as something other then a last resort since we have abortion as legal, and the pill as illegal.

22% may seem high but the the thing to consider is that at some point in your life your birth control will fail... like it is substantially more likley that it will then it wont, even 99% effectiveness measured the way they mesure when translated over your entire life with avrage sexual activity it's still more likley that you will end up with an unwanted pregnancy then not.

So 22% even as a last resort indicates more people are going "well fuck guess I am keeping it" then not.

Edit: As a preemptive since every time I bring that up I get people who dont know how statistics work saying birth control doesnt fail THAT much here is an nyt article on the matter, it does.

Edited by Imca on Nov 29th 2020 at 1:57:30 AM

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#341647: Nov 29th 2020 at 2:03:45 PM

Wait, in Japan abortion is legal and the birth control pill is illegal? That seems...very, very strange.

I mean I know the pill has adverse health effects (increases breast cancer risk; and on a less severe note, gave my aunt really weird migraines), but it’s a lot better than nothing. Why does Japan have that policy?

EDIT: Paywalled.[up]

Personally, I have had sex a grand total of zero times, and in the unlikely event I met a guy I wanted to marry, I’d be making an appointment to get my tubes tied basically the moment we got engaged. But I recognize that I am not most people, and I don’t expect waiting until marriage to be the social norm.

Edited by Galadriel on Nov 29th 2020 at 5:10:27 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#341648: Nov 29th 2020 at 2:10:19 PM

[up]It works if you open the link in an incognito window.

Imca (Veteran)
#341649: Nov 29th 2020 at 2:11:01 PM

Yup, that is correct, there are zero moral ground arguments agianst abortion since it's been a thing since the fuedal era... technicaly it requires the mother to be declared as unfit by the doctor, but any doctor you go to is just going to declare you unfit if you tell them "I dont want it and wont be able to support it" so in practice it's not a restriction at all.

Meanwhile you did have it correct, due to the pills side effects it is incredibly hard to get ahold of, to the point that its existnce might as well not be a factor... you need special permission from your OBGYN and there reluctant to hand them out, even if they do they are not covered by the national health insurance meaning that you get to pay full price... condoms are pretty much the only birth control method available and uhhh even among all the others they are pretty faulty.

So uhh yea, a much better data point for what happens when people are using it as a replacement for the pill.

Edited by Imca on Nov 29th 2020 at 2:15:48 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#341650: Nov 29th 2020 at 2:15:11 PM

So the first link seems to actually have all the needed details. You got 13.7 abortion per 1000 women in 2005 and 28.3 abortions per 100 births in 2005.

Also the age categories give a lot away, amongst under 20s you see more abortions than births (116.7 abortions per 100 births). On top of that 16.9% of abortions where on women/girls under 20. Now 20-24 year olds made up 31.4% and 25-29 year olds 22.1%, but that big a chunk being amongst the group least likely to have proper access to contraceptive/proper understanding of sex education may well explain part of the rate.

The big number to me seems to be the 13.7 per 1000 women, that works out at 1.37% of women having abortions, if birth control is only 99% effective then birth control failure provides a pretty clear explanation for most abortions.

any doctor you go to is just going to declare you unfit if you tell them "I dont want it and wont be able to support it" so in practice it's not a restriction at all.

That sounds similar to the U.K. system, where an abortion requires there to be a threat to the health of the prospective mother, but doctors near universally consider the existence of a pregnancy to be a sufficient enough threat due to the potential health issues of a pregnancy.

Edited by Silasw on Nov 29th 2020 at 10:17:30 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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