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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#341176: Nov 25th 2020 at 12:09:45 PM

The vast majority of democrats voted in favor of the Homeland Security act
Not like you could vote against it at the time. People were terrified.

Edited by Kayeka on Nov 25th 2020 at 9:10:05 PM

clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#341177: Nov 25th 2020 at 12:13:59 PM

[up]I think back then people were afraid of terrorist attacks because of what happened on 9/11, and did whatever they could to implement stricter safety measures. Which is ironic because the Proud Boys and other right-wing psychos would do way more damage here than Al-Qaeda or ISIS ever could.

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#341178: Nov 25th 2020 at 12:18:50 PM

It’s weird to contrast how extreme the reaction to 9/11 was with how muted the US response to COVID has been, despite COVID being by far the larger threat. It’s like people need a personal enemy out there to hate; impersonal threats don’t draw out the same energy.

Edited by Galadriel on Nov 25th 2020 at 3:19:44 PM

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#341179: Nov 25th 2020 at 12:21:01 PM

I see. So the best Biden could most likely do is defund the DHS and move it to more useful departments like Commerce and Energy.

If I remember correctly, and I could be wrong here, money meant for one department cannot be moved out of said department for another department. The money can only be moved within the Department. That's why Trump's Wall could be built with Defense Money, he claimed it was a Defense Expenditure and took the funding exclusively from Defense Spendings.

He could completely defund ICE and put it into FEMA though.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#341180: Nov 25th 2020 at 12:21:19 PM

The American Right decided that the war was against liberals and then got stuck in a Sunk Cost Fallacy that supporting Trump was supporting an idiot.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#341181: Nov 25th 2020 at 12:35:48 PM

He could completely defund ICE and put it into FEMA though.

That sounds like a great way to benefit organized crime, ICE-ERO is bad but the rest of ICE fulfills a necessary purpose. Abolishing it and replacing it with a better organization is fine but this would cause very real harm.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#341182: Nov 25th 2020 at 12:43:52 PM

This is going back a few pages, but to reply to Pendrake:

My understanding of Benghazi wasn't that the Attack itself was Hillary's fault, just her response to it. She didn't send/okay any assistance at all, which is why those retired Special Forces folks had to step in.

As an EVE Online player, this is something I'm quite familiar with, as a member of Goonswarm by the ingame name of "Vile Rat" was someone posted at that Embassy, and happened to be on Voice Comms with them when it happened. He was one of the casualties of that night, and his death led to an unprecedented Ceasefire between every major power in the game, with reps from every one of them being invited onto Goonswarm's comms for a Wake, and a Vigil of spawned Jump Points that lit the entire map up.

The point is, Hillary was detested for her INACTION towards the situation in Benghazi, not that she somehow caused it, or her politics. Much like how Trump is detested now for his inaction to the Coronavirus.

This is the narrative pushed by Republicans, but it's blatantly false. The allegations of wrongdoing were wildly exaggerated as a deliberate political tactic to attack Hillary Clinton. There were something like a dozen different investigations between the FBI, the State Department, and various Congressional committees, and none of them found any evidence of wrongdoing by senior officials. This includes the infamous House Select Committee on Benghazi, whose final report was released in June 2016 — four years after the attack, but just a few months before the 2016 presidential election.

Here's a pretty good summary of the findings. This is specifically about one particular investigation, but they're largely similar. The tldr:

In the aftermath of the attacks, Republicans criticized the Obama administration and its then-secretary of state, Hillary Rodham Clinton, who is expected to run for president in 2016. People in and out of government have alleged that a CIA response team was ordered to "stand down" after the State Department compound came under attack, that a military rescue was nixed, that officials intentionally downplayed the role of al-Qaida figures in the attack, and that Stevens and the CIA were involved in a secret operation to spirit weapons out of Libya and into the hands of Syrian rebels.

None of that is true, according to the House Intelligence Committee report.

It is true that security arrangements were found to be insufficient, among other organizational issues within the State Department. But the people responsible for those failures were State Department career officials, not Obama administration political appointees.

Edited by NativeJovian on Nov 25th 2020 at 3:44:51 PM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#341183: Nov 25th 2020 at 12:45:25 PM

That sounds like a great way to benefit organized crime, ICE-ERO is bad but the rest of ICE fulfills a necessary purpose. Abolishing it and replacing it with a better organization is fine but this would cause very real harm.

ICE has put out a lot of lies about the other things they've done. It turns out the people involved in other things like human trafficking and organized crime have been pulled from their departments to work on immigration. They're all guilty.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#341184: Nov 25th 2020 at 12:48:48 PM

ICE has put out a lot of lies about the other things they've done. It turns out the people involved in other things like human trafficking and organized crime have been pulled from their departments to work on immigration. They're all guilty.

Firstly, [CITATION NEEDED].

Secondly, this isn't a reason to stop fighting organized crime. Should we let rapists rape people because cops are a problem collectively?

No, defunding ICE without replacing it with anything would be a horrible idea.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 25th 2020 at 12:49:02 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#341185: Nov 25th 2020 at 12:51:26 PM

I once talk this girl about Benghazi and she was convinced that Hillary got over 700 calls about it while it was happening, but just completely ignored it. Among other things.

It was pretty interesting because she was apparently a very good student but clearly open to just believe a lot of things that just weren't backed by... anything.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#341186: Nov 25th 2020 at 12:54:53 PM

Yikes. Such is the power of the Big Lie.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#341187: Nov 25th 2020 at 1:02:55 PM

[up]

Truthiness at work, unfortunately.

Removed the rest because [down][down] proved me wrong.

Edited by ironballs16 on Nov 25th 2020 at 4:36:07 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#341188: Nov 25th 2020 at 1:10:35 PM

[up]Ah, so Republicans played a role with their irresponsible hatred of functioning government.

<insert M84's signature>

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#341189: Nov 25th 2020 at 1:15:23 PM

Look, I really don't want to defend the Republican vermin but their spending bills played only a minor role in the Benghazi debacle.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#341190: Nov 25th 2020 at 1:25:45 PM

@Parable: Wow, I'd like to see the article for that one.

It was on Pod Save the World, a podcast about international affairs run by two Obama senior staffers. They talked about how Obama went to Copenhagen to attend a UN Climate Summit that was intended to hammer out an agreement to replace the Kyoto Accords. But when he got there the summit was already falling apart, it has been badly planned and a lot of countries were resistant to doing anything. Obama found that it was impossible to meet with certain world leaders, China, India, and a few others, and quickly found out that China was directing a stonewalling strategy by the leading nations in the developing world to avoid any more commitments to climate that would harm their growth.

Eventually Obama learned of a private meeting between the BRICS leaders, the same ones who had been avoiding him, and decided that if there was going to be any progress at all on addressing the Climate Crisis he had to get in there and speak with them. Problem is that a bunch of Chinese security was keeping everyone out. So, reasoning that they'd block him, but not actually lay hands on him, Obama, a few others, and the Secret Service closed ranks and just pushed through the Chinese security.

Not everyone made it through. In fact Ben Rhodes, who is telling this story, was knocked to the ground by the Chinese and had to watch as Obama and Hillary Clinton kept going. Clinton apparently positioned herself right behind Obama for extra protection. But they made it through and Obama arrived in the room and said:

"Are you ready for me yet, Wen?"

From there they were able to lay the groundwork for the Paris Agreement.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#341191: Nov 25th 2020 at 1:32:40 PM

Look, I really don't want to defend the Republican vermin but their spending bills played only a minor role in the Benghazi debacle.

Hmm, that seems compelling.

Fair enough then.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#341192: Nov 25th 2020 at 1:50:07 PM

[up][up]Wow, Obama's pretty ballers.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#341194: Nov 25th 2020 at 1:51:42 PM

Speaking of Obama, he's continuing to say the things we've all been thinking.

“What’s always interesting to me is the degree to which you’ve seen created in Republican politics the sense that white males are victims,” Obama said. “They are the ones who are under attack – which obviously doesn’t jive with both history and data and economics. But that’s a sincere belief, that’s been internalized, that’s a story that’s being told and how you unwind that is going to be not something that is done right away.”

He also addresses some criticisms of his presidency:

Later, one of the show’s hosts, DJ Envy, asked Obama how he responds to criticism from Black people and other communities of color who don’t believe he did enough for them as president.

“I understand it because when I was elected there was so much excitement and hope, and I also think we generally view the presidency as almost like a monarchy in the sense of once the president’s there, he can just do whatever needs to get done and if he’s not doing it, it must be because he didn’t want to do it,” Obama said.

Envy challenged Obama, making the case that Trump has behaved in exactly that way.

“Because he breaks laws or disregards the constitution,” Obama said. “The good news for me was I was very confident in what I had done for Black folks because I have the statistics to prove it.”

Obama continued to highlight how his policies saw Black people’s incomes rise, poverty drop and access to healthcare increase.

“The issue is sometimes we just didn’t go around advertising that because again the goal here is to build coalitions where everybody is getting something so they all feel like they have a stake in it,” Obama said. “But a lot of my policies were targeted towards people most in need. Those folks are disproportionately African American.”

Edited by Draghinazzo on Nov 25th 2020 at 6:55:15 AM

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#341195: Nov 25th 2020 at 1:56:15 PM

@Parable: Daaaaamn.

Obama's better known for his "don't do stupid shit" and "chill out, I've got this" attitude, but that's some hardcore diplomacy right there.

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#341196: Nov 25th 2020 at 2:00:40 PM

Breaking: Flynn has been pardoned by Trump.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#341197: Nov 25th 2020 at 2:07:19 PM

[up]Pathetic. Couldn't Flynn be arrested after Biden takes office for this? In fact for every criminal that Orange Ghetsis worked with and pardoned while in office, couldn't they be re-arrested by the Biden administration, along with the Orange Monster himself?

Edited by clemont107 on Nov 25th 2020 at 5:11:26 AM

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#341198: Nov 25th 2020 at 2:09:44 PM

[up]No. A pardon is a pardon, nobody can do anything about it unless Flynn's violated a state law, which he hasn't. And a pardon is within the lawful powers of the President to enact, for any or no reason.

Edited by Ramidel on Nov 25th 2020 at 1:10:06 AM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#341199: Nov 25th 2020 at 2:11:06 PM

No, the presidential pardon can't be revoked by the next president. It also is one of the few presidential powers that has virtually no limits (well, except that it can only be used on federal crimes). Trump is technically within his legal right to pardon whoever he wants to.

Leviticus 19:34
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#341200: Nov 25th 2020 at 2:14:35 PM

Maybe its about time presidential pardons are abolished, then. Sounds like it is way too ripe for abuse this way.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times

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