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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
...No. Fascism has never, ever been defined by either requiring concrete definite endgoals or merely being violent and authoritarian. Fascism has a specific narrative, a specific way of running the state, a specific way of framing in-groups and out-groups and specific values it champions. Trump hits basically all of them.
...what?
Edited by GoldenKaos on Nov 23rd 2020 at 1:13:05 AM
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."So to quote
A number of truckers online called for nationwide strikes for numerous reasons, including in protest of U.S. President-elect Joe Biden’s policies and in support of President Donald Trump. Based on their Facebook posts, individual truckers claimed to have stopped operations on Nov. 11, in a lead-up to a larger strike in late November.
What's False
However, it’s not easy, and oftentimes nearly impossible, for U.S. truckers to organize large-scale strikes due to past legislation and the decline of unions. Recent efforts have had minimal impact.
So there’s no strike, there’s a bunch of Facebook posts from people claiming to be truckers, saying that they want a strike. Plus a handful of Facebook posts from people claiming be truckers claiming that they did a wildcat strike.
So the impact will be none, because this isn’t an actual thing, it’s a bunch of angry Facebook posts. If they had been a widespread wildcat strike on November 11th we’d have noticed at some some point over the last two weeks.
Edited by Silasw on Nov 23rd 2020 at 9:13:55 AM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran![]()
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Ok, no. You can have a nuanced and data driven approach towards dissecting the Trump phenomenon and why it happened, why people support him, what can we do to deradicalise people etc, and still go "yeah, he's a Fascist". You're strawmanning hard right now, you're assuming that the people who are pointing out that Trump is a Fascist are somehow relying on that accusation to turn people off him, or something. And that might be true for some Libs, but us Lefties know that a decent chunk of America would go "no he isn't" or "so what?" to accusations of Fascism towards their guy. So there's no point not calling a spade a spade at that point.
Edited by GoldenKaos on Nov 23rd 2020 at 1:19:20 AM
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."Folks, don't slap "Fascist" on Trump just because he's an asshole. Yes, he employs and empowers fascists, but he himself is a conman and grifter. Sure, he "accidentally" himself into leading a fascist faction of the Republican Party, but calling him one is giving him way more credit than he deserves — it is supposing that he has some kind of consistent or coherent ideology besides "more for me".
Edited by Fighteer on Nov 23rd 2020 at 4:20:16 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"He is an authoritarian bigot who constantly spins a narrative of national rebirth, spun conspiracy theories about an elite that needed to be displaced, played the strongman leader even in the face of a plague, consistently spreads anti-intellectual talking points, strengthens the far-right and attacks the left, portrays his enemies as being both strong and weak, attacks the concept of truth by normalising falsehoods, demands absolute loyalty.... etc etc etc
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... then it really doesn't matter if he's a dumbass grifter who chanced his way into this position or not. The end result is the same.
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."Me, I think we need to discuss the motivation of his supporters and his sycophants (i.e Republicans) more. If only for variety and because as I have said many times in the past I think they are actually more evil and certainly more dangerous than Trump.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanEven if that's true, it's not like "not technically a fascist" is meaningfully different "actual fascist". "Oh, he's just acting like a fascist by accident." Yeah, he's still acting like a fascist, genius.
Also, boiling down Trump's behavior to just being an asshole is the most galaxy-brained take I've ever read from a regular.
i'm tired, my friendI don't think it's necessarily incorrect to say Trump isn't a fascist, or even that it isn't a trivial distinction.
However, I would say he's moving America in that general direction way too much either way.
Leviticus 19:34Trump is a grifter.
Trump is a fascist.
Two things can be true. Fascism and grifting are not mutually exclusive.
This debate is silly because it's not an attempt to define what Trump is. It's actually an attempt to define what he's not. It's an attempt to absolve Trump either of grifting or fascism, when the actual reality of his actions demonstrates both grifting and fascist behavior.
Why are we bickering over how much benefit of doubt we want to give to poor misunderstood Trump? Why are we arguing over which pair of leather pants to fit him for?
Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 23rd 2020 at 1:43:04 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub."This debate is silly because it's not an attempt to define what Trump is. It's actually an attempt to define what he's not. It's an attempt to absolve Trump either of grifting or fascism, when the actual reality of his actions demonstrates both grifting and fascist behavior.
Why are we bickering over how much benefit of doubt we want to give to poor misunderstood Trump? Why are we arguing over which pair of leather pants to fit him for? "
because definitions are necesary here to actually know what to deal.
Or is now that aparently and atempt to put him leather pants? really?
"Do you think Trump doesn't have a vision or end-goal? "
His plataform for 2020 was just "whatever trump wants", is any other proof of that?
"Fascism has a specific narrative, a specific way of running the state, a specific way of framing in-groups and out-groups and specific values it champions. Trump hits basically all of them."
It also require some stuff like the concept of total war, elevation of military and imperalism, of which the trump administration lack.
Edited by unknowing on Nov 23rd 2020 at 6:00:07 AM
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"This isn't about absolving Trump or pantsing him, it's about effectively handling him. If you treat him as an ideological creature, you will fail because he's not one of those. He doesn't actually care about ideology; he cares about self-aggrandizement. He is a narcissist. If you want to effectively anticipate and handle him, you must properly grasp his motivations.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I mean trump have behave more as typical latin america strongman that anything with a complete disregard of managing a state, populism, macho persona and a willingness to rob everyone.
I mean he is closer to maduro a this point, ether maduro is a facist now or we have to apply facist correctly.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"Trump may not be an ideological creature, but he was put where he was by ideological creatures. So ideology still needs to be targeted.
My musician pageOh BTW, the trucker's strike thing? Not happening, at least for now. The leader of it realized it would be bad timing. Per Snopes:
Edited by speedyboris on Nov 23rd 2020 at 2:06:43 AM
Sorry for the almost double-post, but if I may cut into this fascism talk? Michigan just certified for Biden.
YAY!!!!
Edited by speedyboris on Nov 23rd 2020 at 2:09:03 AM
Shinny: even that is arguable considering how he grab the GOP by the balls and make them is bitchs, prision style.
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One can argue there is a huge overlaping into his fanbase who are really into facism in general and he was the closer they got into it.
but this for the politics thread.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"The phrase "we have created a monster" might be running through the GOP's minds for a good while. But now, they are trying to think about the next strongman they want to use.
The public either wants an authoritarian, are in serious inertia or just see one idea they like ignoring the whole picture of what they are choosing.
Edited by Blueace on Nov 23rd 2020 at 7:12:44 AM
Wake me up at your own risk.

Whatever definitions and applications of Fascism are pointless if we do not use them for a purpose - it's not just an arbitrary classification.
The ultimate goal and the why matters.
The emotional needs that are the drive to violence, and the 70+ million votes that puts these people in power need to be adressed - and pointing at Trump and screaming "Ahhh! A Fascist!" doesn't achieve this.
And yes. The fascists created new institutions and or destroyed old ones. They certainly appealed to sentiments of old - antisemitism was certainly not invented by Adolf Hitler, and neither is the idea of a Reich or Italy or even a Kingdom of Spain. But it would be incredibly silly to deny that these groups we historically call Fascist brought great upheaval to the systems of governance: Whether by replacing monarchies, pretending to be them, or destroying all forms of opposition, there is a distinct difference betwen Trump and McConnel rigging the system to get two more Supreme Court Justice members, and periods of White Terror to squash political opposition.
The political and historical contexts are very, very different.
Trump and the GOP still play within the rules, because the rules favor them. They made the rules, they are the status quo. Changing them may even work against them. They don't have the need to destroy them and remake them to achieve their goals.
And really, just painting them as Fascists basically does little to help us understand why is it that your racist uncle, a rising number of latinos, the white guy whose favorite superhero now has dark skin, religious nutjobs, abandoned workers in the rust belt, rich texan baron oils and the majority of Florida who also elected to raise minimum wage still vote for Trump after Trump is factually proven incorrect for the nth time.
I know labels are by necesity reductionist and there is a lot more nuance in the rise of Hitler, Mussolini and Franco and the paralels are undeniable - I anticipate the whole "Hitler didn't get to power just by uniting mismatched groups' votes like that!". But there are important distinctions on purpose and form that I think are more relevant to analyze in a different, modern perspective, rather than just slap a "Just like Fascism™!" on Trump.
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes