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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
So I think everyone here knows the Bush presidency was bad, but I found an article that makes a good argument about how Dubya was one of the foundations for the anti-intellectualism and rejection of reality that defines the current GOP
. Granted, the guy used to work for Reagan and H.W Bush so it bears keeping in mind these people are likely far from spotless, but it says a lot that even a number of conservatives at the time of the Bush presidency thought his administration was vacuous as shit.
Here's some choice excerpts and anecdotes:
Suskind and I were very puzzled by this phenomenon, and over the next several months we continued to talk about it, never figuring out the Bush conundrum. Suskind wrote an article for The New York Times Magazine, just before the election in 2004, summarizing our conversations. He quoted me saying that Bush’s faith was the key to understanding him: He had a “weird, Messianic idea of what he thinks God has told him to do,” I said in the article.
Continuing, I told Suskind, “This is why he dispenses with people who confront him with inconvenient facts. He truly believes he’s on a mission from God. Absolute faith like that overwhelms a need for analysis. The whole thing about faith is to believe things for which there is no empirical evidence. But you can’t run the world on faith.”
The aide said that guys like me were “in what we call the reality-based community,” which he defined as people who “believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.” I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. “That’s not the way the world really works anymore,” he continued. “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors … and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”
As the man took his seat in the wing chair next to the president’s desk, he began to explain his problem with the president’s decision.[...]
He was convinced, he told Bush, that the president’s position would soon enough be seen as “bad policy.”
This, it seems, was the wrong thing to say to the president.
According to senior administration officials who learned of the encounter soon after it happened, President Bush looked at the man. “I don’t ever want to hear you use those words in my presence again,” he said.
“What words, Mr. President?”
“Bad policy,” President Bush said. “If I decide to do it, by definition it’s good policy. I thought you got that.”
The adviser was dismissed. The meeting was over.
I don't understand this desire to rehabilitate Trump as a bumbling grifter idiot, but not a Fascist, as if those two categories were somehow mutually exclusive. Do people not want to face how close America came to being taken over by Fascism? How close we still are? Trumpism is a new form of Fascism, pure and simple. And it's not going to go away in the next four years.
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."I have never accused Fascism of being intelligent or harmless. I am merely pointing out that it is done with a specific, deliberate purpose, and Trump's seems other.
All fire wants to consume, but not all fire is from the same sources and is treated the same.
Edited by Aszur on Nov 23rd 2020 at 12:46:23 PM
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothesYeah, I don't think not calling Trump a fascist is necessarily whitewashing him.
Hell, historians have been pretty divided on calling Pinochet a fascist. Doesn't make him any less of a murderous dictator. It's just a matter of accuracy, nothing more, nothing less.
Edited by Forenperser on Nov 23rd 2020 at 7:48:35 PM
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianI have never accused Fascism of being intelligent or harmless. I am merely pointing out that it is done with a specific, deliberate purpose, and Trump's seems other.
I question the idea that the Trump administration hasn't operated under specific, deliberate purpose.
Everything they've done has been about systematically closing off immigration and suppressing various internal out-groups through actions such as banning trans people from the military and trying their best to crush the anti-racism protests.
It's just that they're so incompetent their deliberateness is less obvious amongst the chaos.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangAnd I would argue that those systems were in place way before Trump and Company got there. Him continuing them is not part of his deliberate, specific plan. It's just paying the toll U.S Conservative society demands.
That he does so gladly doesn't mean he is an architect on it.
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothesFaccism run more a vision and a sort of end goal, which trump doesn't have aside of a general "let be good again" and they also highly expansionism and pro warlike, meanwhile trump is highly islonist and kinda anti war in a negative perspective(he Think soldiers are idiots for dying for the country's, disregard soldier in public and in general can't wrap is head on any interaction that is not trasnacional)
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"Yeah, and I think this is a completely arbritrary line in the sand for defining Fascism that is basically useless. If Trump does a Fascism in pursuit of his goals, then he's doing a Fascism in pursuit of his goals, no matter what those goals may be. I really think that what the politician is actually doing is far more important here than what they, deep in their heart of hearts, are intend to do when they do things.
Yeah, that makes sense. Pinochet comes across as closer to being a simple ultranational tyrant on the spectrum of right-wing authoritarians, I'd argue Trump displays far more traits of Fascism than Pinochet ever did.
Edited by GoldenKaos on Nov 23rd 2020 at 11:17:07 AM
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."Yeah I feel like its kind of besides the point to argue about what Trump's premeditated goals are. If he acts like a fascist, and empowers groups with fascist ideology, he might as well be called a fascist.
This reminded me of a video essay I watched a few weeks back by Big Joel. Basically it goes into how people quibble over what Trump is in essence rather than what consequences his actions have. Whether or not Trump is doing fascist things because he truly believes in fascism or because he is a grifter make no practical difference. He is acting like a fascist, ergo he is one
Edited by Xopher001 on Nov 23rd 2020 at 9:48:37 PM
I kind of object to the term 'Trumpism' for American Fascism because Trump didn't originate it, he was simply the catalyst for bringing it to the surface.
Trump was always a power-obsessed, narcissistic racist, but he didn't go full Fash until he started running for President with the likes of Bannon and Miller as advisors and the worst of the scum of the Republican party establishment as supporters.
I see the narrative in this thread and on the internet as a whole shift constantly between 'Trump is without ideology and the GOP is using him to push through their shitty beliefs' and 'Trump is a demagogue and the GOP are gutless cowards going along with him for the sake of power'.
The reality is that post-Trump presidency American Fascism is very much the blend of pre-existing, (sometimes poorly) hidden American Fascism and Trumps own pre-existing fascistic colour.
Calling American Fascism 'Trumpism' leads to the danger of assuming that when the Trump-specific elements disappear, that will be the end of American Fascism, but it won't be.
Angry gets shit done.And I would argue that those systems were in place way before Trump and Company got there. Him continuing them is not part of his deliberate, specific plan. It's just paying the toll U.S Conservative society demands.
This argument doesn't work either, do you think the original fascists conjured institutions from the ether? They utilized what was built before them to do their work, this is another context that Trump is no different from them.
I'm not even convinced that Trump can be called a fascist, my issue is that these arguments just don't work.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangBannon was expelled from Italy for being an Italian fascist and building a school to undermine the government.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Like how Grim Reaper Bannon undermined our presidency by scaring Trump into submission and then sitting on his desk on SNL?
If I recall Toubannon was arrested earlier this year along with some other criminals for a scam involving funds for "The Wall", which were actually used for his own personal stuff. He must have posted bail if he's not in jail anymore. Bannon is a conman just like his Daddy Donnie, and it's both funny and cathartic to see him arrested, even if it doesn't make up for the terrible things he has done in his life.
"If Trump does a Fascism in pursuit of his goals, then he's doing a Fascism in pursuit of his goals, no matter what those goals may be. "
nonsense, facism require a vision and end goal beyond "dicking around", otherwise every muderous state is faccism by definition.
Also how pinochet is just a right tyrant were trump is closer to faccism?
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"I think an actual source might help with this conversation, vague rumours of a maybe strike aren’t really anything but blind speculation.
Has a trucking union called for action? Has their been a ballot? What percentage of truckers are part of said Union?
Edited by Silasw on Nov 23rd 2020 at 8:59:46 PM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyrannonsense, facism require a vision and end goal beyond "dicking around", otherwise every muderous state is faccism by definition.
Do you think Trump doesn't have a vision or end-goal?
I repeat, the actions of the Trump administration have not been "just dicking around". They want an American where wealthy straight white men have the importance and dominance that they had in the past.
They don't have a well-planned path to that objective but considering the record of the Italian Fascists, Nazis, and other fascist movements it should be clear that such things are not necessary to be fascist.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

It's also worth noting that Trump and his immediate cronies, save for a few insane people like Stephen Miller, are not ideologues but grifters. Their role in life is to take whatever they can squeeze out of it. They are also cowards who bow to a dominant Alpha like Trump but have no spine when it comes to carrying out their orders.
It is hard to explain this administration in terms of ideology or race hate because it's been so bad at getting its ideology into law or harming people of other races (systematically, I mean; ICE has done lots of harm but on a relatively small scale in absolute terms). It is easy, however, to explain it in terms of theft: its members enriching themselves on the taxpayers and on business/foreign interests.
Donald Trump views the Presidency as an opportunity to shield himself from his creditors first and foremost. That's why he rolled with attacks on his "policies" but doubled down on attempts to keep his financial information secret. His true love, aside from his face in the mirror, is his bank account.
Edited by Fighteer on Nov 23rd 2020 at 1:29:17 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"