TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#340826: Nov 23rd 2020 at 10:28:18 AM

It's also worth noting that Trump and his immediate cronies, save for a few insane people like Stephen Miller, are not ideologues but grifters. Their role in life is to take whatever they can squeeze out of it. They are also cowards who bow to a dominant Alpha like Trump but have no spine when it comes to carrying out their orders.

It is hard to explain this administration in terms of ideology or race hate because it's been so bad at getting its ideology into law or harming people of other races (systematically, I mean; ICE has done lots of harm but on a relatively small scale in absolute terms). It is easy, however, to explain it in terms of theft: its members enriching themselves on the taxpayers and on business/foreign interests.

Donald Trump views the Presidency as an opportunity to shield himself from his creditors first and foremost. That's why he rolled with attacks on his "policies" but doubled down on attempts to keep his financial information secret. His true love, aside from his face in the mirror, is his bank account.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 23rd 2020 at 1:29:17 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#340827: Nov 23rd 2020 at 10:28:56 AM

So I think everyone here knows the Bush presidency was bad, but I found an article that makes a good argument about how Dubya was one of the foundations for the anti-intellectualism and rejection of reality that defines the current GOP. Granted, the guy used to work for Reagan and H.W Bush so it bears keeping in mind these people are likely far from spotless, but it says a lot that even a number of conservatives at the time of the Bush presidency thought his administration was vacuous as shit.

Here's some choice excerpts and anecdotes:

In those days, I was writing a syndicated column and wrote one praising Suskind’s book as the most insightful yet on the Bush presidency. This led Suskind to seek me out to have a long telephone conversation. We were both curious about the same question: What makes Bush tick? His ideas seemed to come to him from out of the ether, with no foundation in facts, analysis, or underlying philosophy. Yet he held these ideas very strongly, unwilling to be shaken from them no matter how much evidence was presented against them.

Suskind and I were very puzzled by this phenomenon, and over the next several months we continued to talk about it, never figuring out the Bush conundrum. Suskind wrote an article for The New York Times Magazine, just before the election in 2004, summarizing our conversations. He quoted me saying that Bush’s faith was the key to understanding him: He had a “weird, Messianic idea of what he thinks God has told him to do,” I said in the article.

Continuing, I told Suskind, “This is why he dispenses with people who confront him with inconvenient facts. He truly believes he’s on a mission from God. Absolute faith like that overwhelms a need for analysis. The whole thing about faith is to believe things for which there is no empirical evidence. But you can’t run the world on faith.

In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn’t like about Bush’s former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House’s displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn’t fully comprehend—but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were “in what we call the reality-based community,” which he defined as people who “believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.” I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. “That’s not the way the world really works anymore,” he continued. “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors … and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”

One morning in 2001, one of President Bush’s most senior economic advisers walked into the Oval Office for a meeting with the president. The day before, the adviser had learned that the president had decided to send out tax-rebate checks to stimulate the faltering economy. Concerned about deficits and the dubious stimulatory effect of such rebates, he had called the president’s chief of staff, Andy Card, to ask for the audience, and the meeting had been set.

As the man took his seat in the wing chair next to the president’s desk, he began to explain his problem with the president’s decision.[...]

He was convinced, he told Bush, that the president’s position would soon enough be seen as “bad policy.”

This, it seems, was the wrong thing to say to the president.

According to senior administration officials who learned of the encounter soon after it happened, President Bush looked at the man. “I don’t ever want to hear you use those words in my presence again,” he said.

“What words, Mr. President?”

“Bad policy,” President Bush said. “If I decide to do it, by definition it’s good policy. I thought you got that.”

The adviser was dismissed. The meeting was over.

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#340828: Nov 23rd 2020 at 10:42:48 AM

Most common definitions of fascism identify this direct, deliberate targeting of different racial, religious, or political groups as an element of fascism

Yeah, because Trump's never sown societal divide by posing minority demographic groups as dangerous Others to the White American in-group

I don't understand this desire to rehabilitate Trump as a bumbling grifter idiot, but not a Fascist, as if those two categories were somehow mutually exclusive. Do people not want to face how close America came to being taken over by Fascism? How close we still are? Trumpism is a new form of Fascism, pure and simple. And it's not going to go away in the next four years.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#340829: Nov 23rd 2020 at 10:45:18 AM

I have never accused Fascism of being intelligent or harmless. I am merely pointing out that it is done with a specific, deliberate purpose, and Trump's seems other.

All fire wants to consume, but not all fire is from the same sources and is treated the same.

Edited by Aszur on Nov 23rd 2020 at 12:46:23 PM

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#340830: Nov 23rd 2020 at 10:48:23 AM

Yeah, I don't think not calling Trump a fascist is necessarily whitewashing him.

Hell, historians have been pretty divided on calling Pinochet a fascist. Doesn't make him any less of a murderous dictator. It's just a matter of accuracy, nothing more, nothing less.

Edited by Forenperser on Nov 23rd 2020 at 7:48:35 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#340831: Nov 23rd 2020 at 10:50:18 AM

I have never accused Fascism of being intelligent or harmless. I am merely pointing out that it is done with a specific, deliberate purpose, and Trump's seems other.

I question the idea that the Trump administration hasn't operated under specific, deliberate purpose.

Everything they've done has been about systematically closing off immigration and suppressing various internal out-groups through actions such as banning trans people from the military and trying their best to crush the anti-racism protests.

It's just that they're so incompetent their deliberateness is less obvious amongst the chaos.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#340832: Nov 23rd 2020 at 10:52:19 AM

And I would argue that those systems were in place way before Trump and Company got there. Him continuing them is not part of his deliberate, specific plan. It's just paying the toll U.S Conservative society demands.

That he does so gladly doesn't mean he is an architect on it.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#340833: Nov 23rd 2020 at 10:58:25 AM

Faccism run more a vision and a sort of end goal, which trump doesn't have aside of a general "let be good again" and they also highly expansionism and pro warlike, meanwhile trump is highly islonist and kinda anti war in a negative perspective(he Think soldiers are idiots for dying for the country's, disregard soldier in public and in general can't wrap is head on any interaction that is not trasnacional)

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#340834: Nov 23rd 2020 at 11:11:32 AM

I am merely pointing out that it is done with a specific, deliberate purpose

Yeah, and I think this is a completely arbritrary line in the sand for defining Fascism that is basically useless. If Trump does a Fascism in pursuit of his goals, then he's doing a Fascism in pursuit of his goals, no matter what those goals may be. I really think that what the politician is actually doing is far more important here than what they, deep in their heart of hearts, are intend to do when they do things.


Hell, historians have been pretty divided on calling Pinochet a fascist.

Yeah, that makes sense. Pinochet comes across as closer to being a simple ultranational tyrant on the spectrum of right-wing authoritarians, I'd argue Trump displays far more traits of Fascism than Pinochet ever did.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Nov 23rd 2020 at 11:17:07 AM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#340835: Nov 23rd 2020 at 11:41:23 AM

Yeah I feel like its kind of besides the point to argue about what Trump's premeditated goals are. If he acts like a fascist, and empowers groups with fascist ideology, he might as well be called a fascist.

This reminded me of a video essay I watched a few weeks back by Big Joel. Basically it goes into how people quibble over what Trump is in essence rather than what consequences his actions have. Whether or not Trump is doing fascist things because he truly believes in fascism or because he is a grifter make no practical difference. He is acting like a fascist, ergo he is one

Edited by Xopher001 on Nov 23rd 2020 at 9:48:37 PM

Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#340836: Nov 23rd 2020 at 11:50:40 AM

I kind of object to the term 'Trumpism' for American Fascism because Trump didn't originate it, he was simply the catalyst for bringing it to the surface.

Trump was always a power-obsessed, narcissistic racist, but he didn't go full Fash until he started running for President with the likes of Bannon and Miller as advisors and the worst of the scum of the Republican party establishment as supporters.

I see the narrative in this thread and on the internet as a whole shift constantly between 'Trump is without ideology and the GOP is using him to push through their shitty beliefs' and 'Trump is a demagogue and the GOP are gutless cowards going along with him for the sake of power'.

The reality is that post-Trump presidency American Fascism is very much the blend of pre-existing, (sometimes poorly) hidden American Fascism and Trumps own pre-existing fascistic colour.

Calling American Fascism 'Trumpism' leads to the danger of assuming that when the Trump-specific elements disappear, that will be the end of American Fascism, but it won't be.

Angry gets shit done.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#340837: Nov 23rd 2020 at 11:51:18 AM

And I would argue that those systems were in place way before Trump and Company got there. Him continuing them is not part of his deliberate, specific plan. It's just paying the toll U.S Conservative society demands.

This argument doesn't work either, do you think the original fascists conjured institutions from the ether? They utilized what was built before them to do their work, this is another context that Trump is no different from them.

I'm not even convinced that Trump can be called a fascist, my issue is that these arguments just don't work.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#340838: Nov 23rd 2020 at 11:51:46 AM

Bannon was expelled from Italy for being an Italian fascist and building a school to undermine the government.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/6/1/18648732/steve-bannons-italian-monastery-political-gladiator-school-revoke

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#340839: Nov 23rd 2020 at 11:55:58 AM

[up]Like how Grim Reaper Bannon undermined our presidency by scaring Trump into submission and then sitting on his desk on SNL?

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#340840: Nov 23rd 2020 at 11:57:26 AM

That article was written a year ago and does not mention anything about Bannon being banned from Italy, but losing a lease on an old monastery which he apparently forged documents to acquire. Though I would not be surprised if the Italian government booted him out soon after

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#340841: Nov 23rd 2020 at 12:05:36 PM

This ridiculous aversion to calling a spade a spade is one of the most frustrating things about politics.

Trump fell ass backwards into fascism due to his massive ego and already existing bigotry. What the fuck does the guy have to do to get you to see that?

i'm tired, my friend
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#340842: Nov 23rd 2020 at 12:13:49 PM

That's a good question that I am wondering about too.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#340843: Nov 23rd 2020 at 12:21:04 PM

Yes after he got kicked out of Italy, he went on to grift wall idiots.

Bannon not being in jail is a national tragedy.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#340844: Nov 23rd 2020 at 12:27:14 PM

[up]If I recall Toubannon was arrested earlier this year along with some other criminals for a scam involving funds for "The Wall", which were actually used for his own personal stuff. He must have posted bail if he's not in jail anymore. Bannon is a conman just like his Daddy Donnie, and it's both funny and cathartic to see him arrested, even if it doesn't make up for the terrible things he has done in his life.

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#340845: Nov 23rd 2020 at 12:39:06 PM

"If Trump does a Fascism in pursuit of his goals, then he's doing a Fascism in pursuit of his goals, no matter what those goals may be. "

nonsense, facism require a vision and end goal beyond "dicking around", otherwise every muderous state is faccism by definition.

Also how pinochet is just a right tyrant were trump is closer to faccism?

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#340846: Nov 23rd 2020 at 12:53:38 PM

I've heard that truckers are planning a strike over Biden's win, how likely is this and how big would it end up being?

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#340847: Nov 23rd 2020 at 12:55:43 PM

It won't amount to anything really,if it was really was going to happen

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#340848: Nov 23rd 2020 at 12:58:39 PM

I think an actual source might help with this conversation, vague rumours of a maybe strike aren’t really anything but blind speculation.

Has a trucking union called for action? Has their been a ballot? What percentage of truckers are part of said Union?

Edited by Silasw on Nov 23rd 2020 at 8:59:46 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#340849: Nov 23rd 2020 at 12:59:24 PM

nonsense, facism require a vision and end goal beyond "dicking around", otherwise every muderous state is faccism by definition.

Do you think Trump doesn't have a vision or end-goal?

I repeat, the actions of the Trump administration have not been "just dicking around". They want an American where wealthy straight white men have the importance and dominance that they had in the past.

They don't have a well-planned path to that objective but considering the record of the Italian Fascists, Nazis, and other fascist movements it should be clear that such things are not necessary to be fascist.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

Total posts: 417,856
Top