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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#340751: Nov 23rd 2020 at 2:41:13 AM

Umberto Eco gives a good overview of facism in his piece on Ur-Fascism, it's well worth a read if you're interested in more details.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#340753: Nov 23rd 2020 at 4:51:01 AM

In comparing the current state of Trumpism to Nazism, I'd argue that the large lie that Trump had the 2020 election stolen from him is likely to play a similar role with respect to keeping Trumpism alive that the large lie that was the Stab in the Back Myth (link is to the relevant Wikipedia article) did to making Nazism happen, and that we should be doing more now to break the disinformation campaign about the stolen election for that reason.

Edited by thok on Nov 23rd 2020 at 4:51:41 AM

nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#340754: Nov 23rd 2020 at 4:52:21 AM

Most states have finished counting all, or nearly all their ballots, and ten or so have certified results. And then there's New York state, where literally hundreds of thousands of ballots still haven't been reported and no one knows what's going on.

Rapid expansion of early and mail-in voting due to the pandemic left systems unprepared for the enormous increase in volume, straining local election offices that were already underfinanced and understaffed. A state law that allowed local election boards to count absentee ballots later contributed to the delay, as many counties didn't even begin counting until a full week after Election Day. [1] But this was a problem in the June primaries as well [2], so they don't really have an excuse for not fixing things.

Multiple people have rightly pointed out that if New York were a swing state, this would be a national scandal and voter suppression/voter fraud accusations would be flying everywhere.


It's galling that a state with a Democratic trifecta is this bad at elections, especially as it isn't the first time. A report in 2013 on the NYC Board of Elections was positively scathing, with investigators finding "illegalities, misconduct, and antiquated operations." Another round of criticism came after the 2018 midterms and news outlets routinely describe New York's election administration system and voting laws by less than flattering descriptors like "byzantine", "cumbersome", and "marred by corruption".

Many problems stem from the decentralized nature of the New York election system, where each county has great leeway in how they interpret state election laws, in many cases essentially allowing them to set their own rules for how to process ballots and release information to the public, leading to confusion and chaos. Another issue is that the state Board of Elections doesn't act as an independent arbiter, instead relying on judges to intervene and help decide contested elections.

Both cases are illustrated very well by NY-22, where Democratic incumbent Anthony Brindisi is trailing Claudia Tenney by about 300 votes. Or maybe it's closer to 100. No one actually knows, because various counties are releasing information selectively and in piecemeal. There is also a case before the state Supreme Court over disputed and affidavit ballots, where Justice Scott J. DelConte will decide what voter ballots will count, and which will be tossed out, possibly deciding the outcome of the race. [3]


Furthermore, a recent article in the NYT depicted a frankly embarrassing string of incompetence and ineptitude by the New York City Board of Elections (BTW NYC has reported less than 70% of their ballots, by last count), including:

In recent years, the board has made increasingly high-profile blunders, from mistakenly purging 200,000 people from rolls ahead of the 2016 election to forcing some voters to wait in four-hour lines in 2018.


Already this year, the New York City Board of Elections failed to mail out many absentee ballots until the day before the primary, disenfranchising voters, and sent erroneous general election ballot packages to many other residents, spreading confusion.

The root of the mess seems to be the structure/composition of the board, which prioritizes political appointees and patronage over professionals. Many key election officials and employees are the friends or relatives of various party officials, chosen by nepotism rather than merit, expertise or experience. At one point, nearly 10% of employees were related to another staffer. Employees are also often considered an extension of their respective political parties, rather than independent adjudicators.

The structure of the city Board of Elections is enshrined in the state Constitution, and it has its defenders. Some believe that partisan appointees watching each other works better than concentrating control in one elected official, as many states do.
The county party chairs choose the board's 10 commissioners - one Democrat and one Republican from each borough - and most other board employees. Tradition dictates that when staffers leave, they are replaced by someone from the same party and borough.
The official who oversees voter registration in New York City is the 80-year-old mother of a former congressman. The director of Election Day operations is a close friend of Manhattan's Republican chairwoman. The head of ballot management is the son of a former Brooklyn Democratic district leader. And the administrative manager is the wife of a City Council member.
It is difficult to find skilled workers, current and former employees said, because many jobs involve tedious work and require late hours. Employees are also expected to attend fund-raising dinners and carry petitions for candidates favored by their parties. At the same time, it is hard to punish staffers, because commissioners control the disciplinary process and protect their own, employees said.
Meanwhile, both NYC and state officials continue to punt responsibility and deflect criticism to each other and there is a total lack of accountability or will for anything more than surface-level reform.
Elected officials are often quick to criticize the board but deflect responsibility. Representatives for Mr. de Blasio and City Council Speaker Corey Johnson noted the state controls the board's structure. On Sunday, Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo, who has not lobbied state lawmakers to reform the board, said he believes the city should take the lead and bring a proposal to the state.

"They run it. They appoint the people. They set the rules," Mr. Cuomo said.


Still, state lawmakers have never seriously pushed to amend the state Constitution to create a professional structure. And the City Council has not used its power over approving commissioners to force change.

Sources:

Edited by nova92 on Nov 25th 2020 at 2:14:46 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#340755: Nov 23rd 2020 at 4:52:22 AM

Frankly, the main reason Trumpism hasn't turned into full-blown Nazism is that Trump and his cronies are too incompetent and self-centered to make it work. We got lucky, in a sense.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#340756: Nov 23rd 2020 at 4:57:11 AM

That and the USA’s democratic institutions, as flawed as they are, are still rather stronger than the Weimar Republic.

Edited by M84 on Nov 23rd 2020 at 8:57:55 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#340757: Nov 23rd 2020 at 5:00:29 AM

I think intent is also important here. While Trump has fascistic tendencies, he is (or, well, was) not actively trying to create a fascist state. I think his actions could lead to others making that active push though, especially from the far right.

Like, Trump does not have a fascist world view. He doesn't really care all that much about which group is in power, as long as he has power, and wealth. Trump's fascism is not born out of ideology, but out of petty cruelty and greed, and a deep selfishness.

Trump does not really care about his in-group. He is not about lifting the master race or racial purity or anything of that. Trump only cares about Trump. I think there lies the crucial distinction with real fascists like Hitler, who actively strived to put and keep the "right" kind of people in power, and persecute the enemy.

I don't think Trump's racism is particularly ideological either. It is a very selfish sort of racism when it pops up, applied mainly to people who Trump sees as personal enemies. When he calls a senator "Pocahontas", it's not about the inferiority of natives, it's about insulting that senator personally, about taking that person down.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#340758: Nov 23rd 2020 at 5:01:22 AM

The big thing is if in 2024 the Republicans or Trump come up with someone who is effective and smart...

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#340759: Nov 23rd 2020 at 5:02:31 AM

[up][up] Oh, Trump is absolutely racist, especially against black people; it's something he picked up from his father. This has nothing to do with his ego per se, although that multiplies the effect.

[up][up][up][up] Well, New York may be Democratic, but its primary political alignment seems to be to the Party of Cronyism. We should look into cleaning that up.

Edit: [up] I wouldn't worry about that too much. The modern GOP is founded on such stark denial of reality that anyone who reaches the top is going to be utterly incompetent, utterly devoid of conviction, or both. The party excommunicates competent people. Its natural state is one of idiocy.

The true threat isn't that it could create a competent fascist state but that it could crush the state under the weight of its incompetence.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 23rd 2020 at 8:04:57 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#340760: Nov 23rd 2020 at 5:08:57 AM

He is racist, but what I mean is that he is not an ideologue in the sense that someone like Hitler or Mussolini was. He ultimately only cares about putting himself on top of everyone else, regardless of race.

The main reason Trump has not become an actual fascist leader is that he just doesn't care to become one. The big danger now is that someone steps up in the Republican party who does.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#340761: Nov 23rd 2020 at 5:12:36 AM

I agree. Trump is an egomaniac, first and foremost. He has no consistent ideology.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#340762: Nov 23rd 2020 at 5:17:54 AM

He absolutely has a consistent ideology. It's just smash and loot. You're acting like Trump would have passed progressive legislation or extended olive branches to foreign governments if he thought it would get him praised. He has not. His actions are clearly in service to self-aggrandization, yes, but also to gutting the government, demonizing and killing poor people and minorities, stripping women's rights, and everything else we've seen him do these past four years.

Let's not pretend he's just some unpredictable windvane who spins in whatever direction praise is coming from. The man's a hateful bigot and he's always acted consistently with that fact in addition to his own ego-stroking.

It's been fun.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#340763: Nov 23rd 2020 at 5:24:38 AM

Trump does not need to be a True Believer to be a fascist. If he looks like a fascist, and talks like a fascist, and walks like a fascist, then he's a fascist — even if he's only a fascist for immediate personal gain rather than because he genuinely and sincerely believes in fascist ideology.

Edited by NativeJovian on Nov 23rd 2020 at 8:25:19 AM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#340764: Nov 23rd 2020 at 5:52:28 AM

Frankly, the main reason Trumpism hasn't turned into full-blown Nazism is that Trump and his cronies are too incompetent and self-centered to make it work. We got lucky, in a sense.

And if you've looked at the absolute buffoons who were running the show in the Third Reich, being more incompetent and self-centered than them is actually quite an achievement in its own right.

One of the greatest lies fascists have ever told in service of their ideology's continued survival, and that the world has let them tell is that they're Repressive, but Efficient. The trains never actually ran on time and cronyism and corruption were always rampant. Fascist, but Inefficient has proven to be Truth in Television every time.

Of course, incompetence is remarkably little impediment to cruelty and looting and should never be confused for harmlessness.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#340765: Nov 23rd 2020 at 5:57:03 AM

[up] Valid points. Incompetence can be destructive in its own way, and if anything both Trumpism and Nazism have proven that there are plenty of people who will gladly go along despite or perhaps even because of its gross stupidity.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#340766: Nov 23rd 2020 at 5:59:52 AM

When Weird Al told us to "Dare to be Stupid", I don't think this is quite what he meant.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#340767: Nov 23rd 2020 at 6:00:53 AM

Dejoy was hired by Trump to destroy the mailing system of the United States so that he could delay, obstruct, as well as justify throwing out mail in votes. It failed but this is the largest case of Trump attempting to cheat in the United States election.

The question of whether stopping mail-in votes was ever that good of a strategy is immaterial to the fact it was deliberate sabotage and Dejoy should spend the rest of his life in prison for it.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#340768: Nov 23rd 2020 at 6:03:23 AM

The Nazis were competent enough once they got in power to do a lot of damage. The main downfall of Nazism was not incompetence, but a protracted war on two fronts that destroyed their economy and industry.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#340769: Nov 23rd 2020 at 6:06:47 AM

[up] Yeah no. The only thing the Nazis were "competent" at was mass murder.

Their economy was bound to self-destruct either way because it was built on theft and plunder and pretty much ever high-ranking Nazi was stealing from the till to enrich themselves.

Indy Neidell once compared the way Nazi Germany was run to a crime syndicate and he wasn't far off the mark there.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#340770: Nov 23rd 2020 at 6:08:55 AM

The only thing they ever devoted any real thought to was killing Jewish people. They fucking industrialized genocide.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Reflextion from a post-sanity world (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
#340771: Nov 23rd 2020 at 6:12:36 AM

Ruining things and killing the already downtrodden doesn't exactly take Rick and Morty-level IQ here, you realize

Edited by Reflextion on Nov 23rd 2020 at 9:13:15 AM

Someone did tell me life was going to be this way.
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#340772: Nov 23rd 2020 at 6:12:58 AM

I'd say they were also competent at propaganda. But that's about it.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#340773: Nov 23rd 2020 at 6:16:05 AM

Scoop: Blackstone CEO Stephen Schwarzman says Trump lost Schwarzman's signal is more meaningful in Trumpworld than any of the messages so far from corporate America

https://www.axios.com/blackstone-ceo-stephen-schwarzman-trump-biden-61c711ba-1127-4c03-a815-2162317e5066.html

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#340774: Nov 23rd 2020 at 6:23:06 AM

People think of the Nazis as the Galactic Empire.

The Nazis were actually the First Order.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#340775: Nov 23rd 2020 at 6:24:01 AM

[up]x5 They learned a lot of said genocide from the US. The US has done it a lot too in its history, as much of a hard pill that is to swallow.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Nov 23rd 2020 at 9:24:25 AM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"

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