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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#340651: Nov 22nd 2020 at 11:31:26 AM

What an idiot. People are destitute because they've lost all of their businesses and jobs.

Some people are, yes, which is a human tragedy that needs to be addressed. But from a high-level view of the economy as a whole, there is pent-up demand because people have been staying at home instead of taking vacations, going to live events, eating in restaurants and drinking in bars, even just "going shopping" as a recreational activity rather than picking up necessities.

From an economic standpoint, the economy is suffering right now because there's a supply shortage. On the "supply and demand" equation, supply is depressed because of covid. The usual way to fix this is to give companies money (so they can hire more people, expand production lines, etc) — but that won't work because the problem isn't traditional supply constraints, it's the fact that there's a pandemic on which discourages people from leaving their homes. So the only fix is to address the core problem — covid.

The smart play would have been to aggressively push things like mask mandates and closing of high-risk businesses (live entertainment, bars and restaurants, gyms, etc) while providing direct cash aid to those businesses so they can stay in business and keep paying their employees in the meantime, and also providing direct cash aid to people who have lost their jobs so they can continue to, you know, eat and pay rent. But that ship has long since sailed, so we're back to trying to flatten the curve enough to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed before a vaccine becomes widely available.

Either way, the economy won't recover until we have covid under control — but speaking from a purely economic perspective (ie, ignoring the terrible human cost of not supporting people who have lost their income and potentially their homes and food security as a result), things will largely return to where they were before once covid is under control. There's no big systemic problem holding the economy back. It's as simple as "people aren't leaving their house because it's not safe to do so" and "once it's safe again, the economy will recover easily".

Some of this is naive and outright wrong but there is a core of truth to the idea that a big issue is the Democrats sacrificed their reputation as the party of the Working Class.

The Democrats are the party of the working class. The actual poor vote heavily Democrat. The people who vote Republican are largely rural, white, blue-collar middle class. People tend to conflate "working class" and "blue collar" (not least of all blue collar workers themselves), but they are absolutely not the same thing. If you're making $30/hour in a skilled trade, that's in the neighborhood of a $60k annual salary — solidly middle class in most parts of the country, and actually quite well off in some of the lower cost-of-living areas (which tend to be rural, ie the sorts of places we're talking about).

Hell, the linked article doesn't really make any arguments for why the Democrats supposedly lost the working class or how to regain it. It just talks about how Reagan was great at image and Biden has a chance to help boost the Democrats' image by simply being sane and competent, as opposed to Trump's deranged incompetence. It doesn't really talk about the working class at all.

Edited by NativeJovian on Nov 22nd 2020 at 2:31:54 PM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#340652: Nov 22nd 2020 at 11:39:45 AM

Defeating Trump was a good step in destroying his cult of personality because the people here were rallied around his God-King pretensions and aura of invincibility (which is moronic and heretical but hey). His defeat is a big deal because it has, to quote Whiplash, made a god bleed.

It blows my mind that you're seriously arguing this while 67% of Republican voters doubting the legitimacy of the election and Republican politicians actively backing Trump's accusations of rigging.

The only thing that would've had a chance of delegitimizing Trumpism in the Republican Party would be a landslide victory, which we did not get.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#340653: Nov 22nd 2020 at 11:45:16 AM

It blows my mind that you're seriously arguing this while 67% of Republican voters doubting the legitimacy of the election and Republican politicians actively backing Trump's accusations of rigging.

The only thing that would've had a chance of delegitimizing Trumpism in the Republican Party would be a landslide victory, which we did not get.

Growing up in Trump Country, no, not in the slightest. Your argument implies that a landslide victory would have been accepted by Trump or his base. No, because they only would accept one FOR TRUMP. The constant court cases and failure to overturn the election is a slow detox but an epic victory would.not.have.worked.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#340654: Nov 22nd 2020 at 12:02:35 PM

The only thing that would've had a chance of delegitimizing Trumpism in the Republican Party would be a landslide victory, which we did not get.

And even then, I find myself skeptical it would really be that. Even in the best case scenario of having taken Florida, Iowa, Ohio, North Carolina, and Texas Trump still would have gotten tens of millions of votes. That's ten of millions of people enthusiastic, or at least more tolerable to Trump than Biden.

One landslide wouldn't have destroyed that.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#340655: Nov 22nd 2020 at 12:06:28 PM

Biden won by more votes than any other president in history.

What people mean by landslide seems to be, "That Trump doesn't remain popular with racists."

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#340656: Nov 22nd 2020 at 12:09:25 PM

They wanted a bigger lead. Like a 70/30 victory for Biden. It's still worrying that Trump got more than 70 million votes.

Tells you how polarized the country is, doesn't it?

Edited by Blueace on Nov 22nd 2020 at 5:10:03 PM

Wake me up at your own risk.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#340657: Nov 22nd 2020 at 12:35:04 PM

And even then, I find myself skeptical it would really be that. Even in the best case scenario of having taken Florida, Iowa, Ohio, North Carolina, and Texas Trump still would have gotten tens of millions of votes. That's ten of millions of people enthusiastic, or at least more tolerable to Trump than Biden.

One landslide wouldn't have destroyed that.

Indeed, as you say a landslide destroying Trumpism is not particularly likely.

It's just that Trumpism going away with the current "solid but not overwhelming" victory is even more unlikely.

(this is meant to add to your point, obviously, you aren't arguing otherwise)

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#340658: Nov 22nd 2020 at 12:47:14 PM

[up][up] Which is pretty much why some people have been somewhat bummed out by the result, to put it mildly.

There was a belief that Trump won partly due to a combination of low voter turnout (something that generally tends to benefit the far-right) and a lot of people being this misinoformed. Surely, four years of Trump would disspell some of these false ideas people got in theirs about him.

Nope, turns out a lot of voters are actually that enthusiastic about a virulent white supremacist dragging their country down into the abyss. Trump likely could make good on his earlier bragging about shooting a person in public and those same voters would still rally to him.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#340659: Nov 22nd 2020 at 12:50:12 PM

Voter turnout in 2016 wasn’t actually low. It was lower than, say, 2008, but higher than in the Bush years.

Also, as far as the economy goes, what’s needed during and after the pandemic is large-scale wealth redistributions. The super-rich are doing fine, as are upper-muddle-class professionals who can work from home, but lower-income people who work in restaurants, hotels, and shops are getting hammered (as are small businesspeople who run restaurants, shops and the like). This exacerbates existing inequalities.

We need massive transfers to the low-income people hit hardest by COVID-19.

Even if the Dems get the Senate (very unlikely), I think it would take some hard pushing and mass public advocacy campaigns to get Biden to do this.

Upper-middle-class professionals spending the money they’ve saved during the pandemic is not going to be enough to get the economy started again or to prevent a big rise in poverty. And I’m speaking as one of those upper-middle-class professionals.

Edited by Galadriel on Nov 22nd 2020 at 3:56:37 PM

clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#340660: Nov 22nd 2020 at 12:52:41 PM

[up][up]He is stupid but not that stupid. He knew if he did that or something similar a lot of his more "moderate" supporters would be disgusted and break off from him. So all he does is make up ridiculous statements at his rallies and never follows through, just to rile up his supporters. It's a win-win situation for him because the more extreme supporters like his unbelievably laughable and pathetic rhetoric, while the more moderate ones know he won't follow through.

He's not a master at playing 4-D Chess (in fact I don't think he would be good at regular chess) but he's not Too Dumb to Live.

Edited by clemont107 on Nov 22nd 2020 at 3:57:13 PM

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#340661: Nov 22nd 2020 at 12:53:22 PM

Trump's core voters aren't really voting for Trump, their voting for the conservative movement, which they felt was best represented by Trump. But he didn't create Tea Party voters, and they won't go away just because he was defeated, landslide or no. What a landslide defeat would have done was convince Republican donors and the party establishment that racist populism was costing their party, so they would stop supporting openly bigoted candidates. That may or may not have been a realistic expectation, but it doesn't matter because there was no Blue Wave so the next candidate will surely be a better disciplined version of Trump.

We have won a minor battle, not the war.

"Nope, turns out a lot of voters are actually that enthusiastic about a virulent white supremacist dragging their country down into the abyss."

That's a simplified version of the average Republican voter, who voted based on their beliefs about abortion, gay rights, immigration, school prayer, gun ownership and jobs.

Remember—Trump basically delivered on his promises to these voters. His racism and sexism were unimportant to them, but not net positives.

Edited by DeMarquis on Nov 22nd 2020 at 3:56:13 PM

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#340662: Nov 22nd 2020 at 1:13:54 PM

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/11/13/elissa-slotkin-braces-for-a-democratic-civil-war-436301?utm_source=pocket-newtab

Elissa Slotkin gives a lengthy opinion on the merits of being a Centrist Democrat. Also, I came from not knowing a thing about her to hating her passionately.

So, as you will.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#340663: Nov 22nd 2020 at 1:28:35 PM

nvm

Edited by Draghinazzo on Nov 22nd 2020 at 6:28:57 AM

nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#340664: Nov 22nd 2020 at 1:29:57 PM

NPR: Census 'Anomalies' Could Thwart Trump's Bid To Alter Next Electoral College

The U.S. Census Bureau has determined it cannot put together the first set of results from this year's census by its Dec. 31 deadline. The bureau says it needs to resolve routine "processing anomalies."

So, the bureau is looking toward Jan. 26 as a new target date, according to a bureau employee who learned about the shift during an internal meeting Thursday and spoke to NPR on the condition of anonymity for fear of retaliation in the workplace.

The schedule change means the handing-off of census numbers that determine each state's share of congressional seats and Electoral College votes for the next decade will take place after President Trump's term ends, thwarting Trump's unprecedented attempt to change who is counted in this key count.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#340665: Nov 22nd 2020 at 1:38:18 PM

Guys, a 70/30 split in the popular vote would have won Biden all 50 states. The closest a Democrat has ever gotten to that was FDR, with 46 states and 60% of the vote, and he had to run against a jobber GOP candidate in Alf Landon for something like that to happen. Are we liberals really that delusional that we expect something like that? Just fucking celebrate the win; we hardly get any these days. These idiotic people are unhappy that they didn't get an extreme, borderline impossible outcome. The 73 million people who voted for Trump are who we thought they were.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Nov 22nd 2020 at 4:53:16 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
BrainSewage from that one place Since: Jan, 2001
#340666: Nov 22nd 2020 at 1:57:25 PM

[up]You're not wrong, but I think the point is that Trumpism is a disease that will endure for decades, and this fact remains regardless of any realistic electoral outcome.

Like it or not, half the voting population are either Nazis or are okay with Nazism, and nothing is ever going to budge them. The left always seems to overestimate its support base and its ability to change minds, but at the end of the day, the general apathy and uselessness of the American voter means the best we can do is hold the line until more Boomers die off. Until then, the mob of angry simpletons making rant videos in their trucks remains a constant threat.

Edited by BrainSewage on Nov 22nd 2020 at 4:00:04 AM

How dare you disrupt the sanctity of my soliloquy?
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#340667: Nov 22nd 2020 at 2:00:43 PM

So keep voting and keep beating them. We have to learn to be satisfied with winning, no matter what that win looks like.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#340668: Nov 22nd 2020 at 2:10:48 PM

I know this is anecdotal, but most of the Boomers I know are very liberal and many of a former hippie bent. They grew up in the Civil Rights and Vietnam Era, were pretty obviously influenced by it, and were on the left hand side of that divide.

Of course, the ones I personally know are also mostly the Highly Educated who may have been partly influenced to pursue further degrees as a way to not get drafted.

devak They call me.... Prophet Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
They call me.... Prophet
#340669: Nov 22nd 2020 at 2:21:25 PM

[up][up][up]"The left always seems to overestimate its support base "

It's been mentioned several times before, but leftist ideas are plenty popular.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#340670: Nov 22nd 2020 at 2:21:28 PM

[up][up] IIRC, you're from Massachusetts right? That's probably why. In my experience growing up that was usually the case, and rightwing boomers were an exception, mainly immigrants like part of my Chinese American family. It's been the same for other heavily blue states I've spent time in that the boomers will usually be of that bent as well. And yes I remember people talking about doing all they could to send their family to college during that time to escape the draft.

Edited by AlleyOop on Nov 22nd 2020 at 5:22:12 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#340671: Nov 22nd 2020 at 2:24:08 PM

I have to agree with Crimson Zephyr here. Yes, it's obviously better to win by more and, yes, the percentage of the population that will unshakeably vote for fascism is concerning, but at some point you have to take the win.

This idea of a win not "counting" if it's not by this arbitrarily high super-majority of the like doesn't actually help with anything.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#340672: Nov 22nd 2020 at 2:37:52 PM

I consider the 70 million the Legacy of the Confederacy.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#340673: Nov 22nd 2020 at 2:42:14 PM

People DID vote for trump but is more than that, they vote for continue the cultural war, to remain in the america they grow and expec them to be, trump promise all that and he fail, this means they will try to find a messiah or a least being dormant for the moment until the next populist come along.

but I agree with charles on something: trump is a focus point and a lighting rod for bad belief on america, if dems want to make any gains in republican voter they need their focus to be on them, not in trump.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#340674: Nov 22nd 2020 at 2:47:20 PM

Half the US population isn't fascist, nor is the other half socialist (as they would believe), unless you are defining fascist so broadly as to almost useless as a political category. Half the population doesn't care about social justice as much as they do about the economy or hot button social issues. That's a difference with a distinction.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Perseus Since: Nov, 2009
#340675: Nov 22nd 2020 at 3:01:07 PM

I frankly disagree that there is a meaningful difference between "fascist" and "okay enough with fascism to support a fascist".

Edited by Perseus on Nov 22nd 2020 at 10:04:58 PM


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