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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#340626: Nov 22nd 2020 at 7:48:30 AM

It doesn't help that the Trump camp also hijacked the genuinely tragic cases of black businesses and even lives (like that of David Dorn) being caught in the crossfires of the more violent parts of the BLM protests to say: "See? They don't really care about black lives, WE do!"

Edited by Forenperser on Nov 22nd 2020 at 4:48:51 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#340627: Nov 22nd 2020 at 8:02:54 AM

People are confused because the economy began to recover in the last years under Obama, but it wasn't dramatic, and when the recovery began to be noticed under Trump, he successfully took credit for it. Also, the main reason why the economy did so well under Trump is that he lowered taxes, but kept government spending high, and borrowed heavily to make up the difference (just like Reagan did). The Democrats to this day have not developed a simple economic narrative that can dispel the impression that Republicans are just better at managing the economy.

Trump is a "Borrow and Spend" Republican. But Democrats don't talk like that.

Still, the underlying point is that Americans of Color, like other Americans, base their votes on what they perceive will benefit themselves personally in the quickest and most direct way possible. They prefer money over justice.

Edited by DeMarquis on Nov 22nd 2020 at 11:04:28 AM

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#340628: Nov 22nd 2020 at 8:03:35 AM

[up][up]These people should know about Trump's racism, and that it had existed ever since he became an adult: in the 70s, there was some lawsuits against Trump for discrimination against African-Americans with regards to renting apartments, and in the 90s, Trump both organized ads against several African-American men wrongly suspected of murder seeking to "punish them", and referred to Japanese-Americans as "Japs". The fact that they disregard this info could be interpreted as a Horrible Judge of Character or maybe that they Stopped Caring.

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#340629: Nov 22nd 2020 at 8:07:55 AM

These people also pretend that the Party Switch never happened and that Trump is still carrying on Abraham Lincoln's platform. Yes, really. Just today I read that on Candace Owen's Twitter. The delusional nonsense this woman is spouting is absolutely batshit insane.

Reality doesn't apply to them.

Edited by Forenperser on Nov 22nd 2020 at 5:09:24 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#340630: Nov 22nd 2020 at 8:12:53 AM

Even without the racism, one really ought to sense the sleaze behind Trump's business history. If I believed in miracles, I wouldn't trust the likes of Trump to give them to me. I'd immediately become suspicious.

ASAB: All Sponsors Are Bad.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#340631: Nov 22nd 2020 at 8:17:15 AM

Or that they never cared in the first place. The implication is that social justice is not the highest priority for many (not most) people of color.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#340632: Nov 22nd 2020 at 8:19:40 AM

"The Democrats to this day have not developed a simple economic narrative that can dispel the impression that Republicans are just better at managing the economy."

That's because voters keep electing Republicans right as Democratic labor bears fruit. Of course the GOP claims false laurels each and every time. The voters put them in a position to. Every economic crisis of the past forty years has taken place under Republican leadership. Every single one. Democrats are brought in to fix it, and Republicans are brought in to steal the credit. Our electorate is terminally stupid.

Until the Democrats are given four, five uninterrupted presidential terms, this cycle will continue.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#340633: Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:07:20 AM

Next four years are going to really suck because T**** has completely wrecked the American economy, and by the time Biden manages to make it recover, it'll be time for elections again.

ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#340634: Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:08:26 AM

[up] If we can somehow get the Senate tied, and Manchin isn't being evil, we MIGHT be able to push a number of things through that can salvage the economy enough before elections.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Nov 22nd 2020 at 12:08:41 PM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#340635: Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:08:55 AM

That's not necessarily so. Paul Krugman is of the opinion that the economy will roar back to life once sane governance is in place and COVID-19 is (mostly) behind us because, unlike the 2008 crash, this situation is one in which consumers have built up a reserve of savings that they can spend in a rush when things open up again.

That's a NYT link and so paywalled, but I'm summarizing.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 22nd 2020 at 12:09:02 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#340636: Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:09:04 AM

I’m hoping against hope that the people who voted for Biden this time don’t forget that whoever the next republican candidate is will be just as destructive.

My musician page
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#340637: Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:16:03 AM

I’m hoping against hope that the people who voted for Biden this time don’t forget that whoever the next republican candidate is will be just as destructive.

I don't think some of the people who participate in our democracy understand that there is always another election around the corner.

One of the arguments that won Biden the primary was the logic that Biden may not be the best candidate for Presidency, but it doesn't matter; we need to beat Trump now and worry about having a progressive platform later, once the threat of Trump is gone.

Setting aside the conversation of how progressive Biden's platform is (more than a lot of people realize), this is a bad argument because it assumes that there won't be a Trump later. It assumes the existence of such a time when Biden can be replaced by a farther left Democrat without having to get that Democrat past an election against someone just as bad or worse as Nixon, Reagan, the Bushes, or Trump.

It's kicking the can down the road into a pothole. It's claiming that we can push a farther left candidate just as soon as a Presidential Election pops up where the Democrats can run unopposed. And that's. Not. Really. A thing. Beating Republicans today =/= Beating Republicans forever.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:17:52 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#340638: Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:22:13 AM

My responses to that:

1. I voted for Warren in the primary. I believe primaries are the place for 'I really want this candidate!' and general elections are the place for 'This candidate is better than the other one on the ballot'.

2. If the candidate never gets elected, it doesn't matter how good their policies are. You can't enact policy if you're not in office in the first place.

3. Congress matters. You also can't get the policy you want implemented if it's obstructed in the legislative branch.

4. Moving the Overton Window.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#340639: Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:28:08 AM

That's not necessarily so. Paul Krugman is of the opinion that the economy will roar back to life once sane governance is in place and COVID-19 is (mostly) behind us because, unlike the 2008 crash, this situation is one in which consumers have built up a reserve of savings that they can spend in a rush when things open up again.

What an idiot. People are destitute because they've lost all of their businesses and jobs.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#340640: Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:44:40 AM

[up][up] Electability has always been a silly argument. When Biden won, we asked that the Sanders and Warren voters come together to support him and push him to success in the general. If Warren had won, we would ask the same of Biden and Sanders voters. If Sanders won, it'd be Biden and Warren voters. Either way, the general election is the time to remove the party dividers and bring everyone together to ram our candidate into the Presidency.

When you take into account that party unity will be asked regardless of who gets the nomination, the electability argument basically becomes, "Whose voters do we think will throw the biggest ragequit tantrum if their candidate doesn't get the nomination?"

It's actually kind of amazing that the Unicorn Brigade gets shit on for being fickle voters when we keep tacitly declaring the moderates to be the ones most likely to take their ball and go home if their candidate isn't our guy.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:46:54 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#340641: Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:49:18 AM

Biden was my least favorite choice except for Bloomberg. But the will of the people made it known when he won by a landslide.

Hopefully the will of the people will change in the future.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#340642: Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:50:18 AM

[up][up]You're framing the concept of electability in the general as a reason to back someone in the primaries as merely whoever is able to unite the different camps within those primaries, and not as whoever is able to unite the different camps within the general. I think that's a fundamentally flawed way of approaching why people voted for Biden in the primaries citing electability as the reason why.


[up]x3 Also yes, Krugman's assumption that people have built up a bunch of spending money over Covid when numerous individuals and industries have been just deprived of income is incredibly silly.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Nov 22nd 2020 at 9:50:36 AM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#340643: Nov 22nd 2020 at 10:01:45 AM

https://thehill.com/opinion/technology/527054-can-biden-vanquish-democrats-old-debilitating-ghosts

A good argument that the Democrats need to rethink their strategy with rural America and restore their once vast gains there. Some of this is naive and outright wrong but there is a core of truth to the idea that a big issue is the Democrats sacrificed their reputation as the party of the Working Class.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 22nd 2020 at 10:02:48 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#340644: Nov 22nd 2020 at 10:16:32 AM

[up]I dont think sacrifing their reputation is a good idea but is more that another aspect of polarization is in plan and that is the territorialization of conflict, what is seen as democrat and republican territories are suddenly see as ironclad thing that cant be move, more and more dems are less bother of what the rural voter think because they suspect they cant be move at all and vice versa.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#340645: Nov 22nd 2020 at 10:28:00 AM

Back in June, Krugman's take wasn't a bad one; due to the COVID stimulus there actually has been a surge in the national savings rate in the US. Of course, that was back in June, and the COVID stimulus package has mostly disappeared.

Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#340646: Nov 22nd 2020 at 10:45:33 AM

Think one of the saddest things I've seen is a friend of mine who's a Trump voter (ironically due to the same stuff that was mentioned earlier Obama and Biden did with the Economy), but she also advocates wearing a mask, on account of being a pharmacy worker just down the block from a Hospital.

I've had to step in and defend her a few times from the serious Right-wing nutbars who think Trump was "prophesied to win" and think "masks are muzzles."

the EC Vote and January 20th can't come too soon.

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#340647: Nov 22nd 2020 at 10:49:48 AM

Defeating Trump was a good step in destroying his cult of personality because the people here were rallied around his God-King pretensions and aura of invincibility (which is moronic and heretical but hey). His defeat is a big deal because it has, to quote Whiplash, made a god bleed.

They can't deal with that.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#340648: Nov 22nd 2020 at 11:14:12 AM

[up][up][up] Agreed and I would point to the end of WWII, where Americans had a ton of savings from the forced recession while in the war to the point the economy didn't start feeling the hit until deregulation and effects of America's assholishness internationally started hitting the economy.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#340649: Nov 22nd 2020 at 11:19:38 AM

"Until the Democrats are given four, five uninterrupted presidential terms, this cycle will continue."

I'm sorry, but I think that this is stupid. To the extent that voters are predictable, it's the responsibility of the party and candidate that want their support to generate persuasive arguments which will have that result. No one owes the Democrats anything. If we can't come up with a narrative that helps us win, that's on us.

As for the economy, this is from the Krugman article Fighteer quote:

"OK, this is not the consensus view. Most economic forecasters appear to be quite pessimistic; they expect a long, sluggish recovery that will take years to bring us back to anything resembling full employment. They worry a lot about long-term “scarring” from unemployment and closed businesses. And they could be right."

So while Krugman might be wrong, he isn't being "silly", he knows he's proposing a counter-intuitive view and is prepared to argue for it. He cites evidence.

"What held recovery back after 2008? Most obviously, the bursting of the housing bubble left households with high levels of debt and greatly weakened balance sheets that took years to recover.

This time, however, households entered the pandemic slump with much lower debt. Net worth took a brief hit but quickly recovered. And there’s probably a lot of pent-up demand: Americans who remained employed did a huge amount of saving in quarantine, accumulating a lot of liquid assets."

There are links that quote which lead to his sources. Here they are:

"All of this suggests to me that spending will surge once the pandemic subsides and people feel safe to go out and about, just as spending surged in 1982 when the Federal Reserve slashed interest rates. And this in turn suggests that Joe Biden will eventually preside over a soaring, “morning in America”-type recovery."

I'm not enough of an economist to know if he's right, and maybe we should move this discussion to the economics thread, but it seems like a plausible argument to me. Most Americans didn't lose their jobs, most businesses haven't gone bankrupt. Trump didn't destroy the economy, in fact he was minimally competent at preserving it (at the cost of greater wealth disparity and a much larger federal deficit).

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#340650: Nov 22nd 2020 at 11:29:06 AM

The million dollar question is what’s greater, the debt built up from people becoming unemployed and businesses going under, or the savings built up by people being able to work from home and stimulus money from the federal government?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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