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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#339751: Nov 17th 2020 at 9:51:23 AM

Uh.

This is why we've been looking to New York, folks, right? They're pretty clearly eager, they're probably not going to get called out for doing it for political reasons and aren't going to be appointed by Biden so it won't look like he's appointing them to do this, and a President can't pardon anyone for state-level crimes.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#339752: Nov 17th 2020 at 9:56:40 AM

Are there any crimes that can't be pardoned by the president?

Kaze ni Nare!
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#339753: Nov 17th 2020 at 9:56:54 AM

Wouldn't Trump's second justice (whose name escapes me now) also rule in his favor? IIRC he was chosen specifically by Trump for his belief that the President is above the law...

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#339754: Nov 17th 2020 at 9:59:54 AM

Chapter and verse of §2, Sec.2 Clause 1 US Constitution:

Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of impeachment.

That excludes both state level offences such as these New York is pursuing and impeachment itself (but that's not relevant as he was acquitted)

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#339755: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:00:02 AM

I don’t see Biden going back on his promise to not pardon Trump, he might be privately hoping that Trump resigns and has Pence pardon him, but actually pardoning Trump would hurt him and the party monumentally.

The reaction on the left wouldn't be quiet, you’d likely see the Democrats fracture over it, some within the party might even try and impeach Biden for it (and Republicans might be willing to help just to stir the pot), a strong third-party run in 2024 would be inevitable (and give Republicans the White House) and Biden would have proved for a generation that both sides really are the same.

If Biden actually wants to avoid Trump being prosecuted he’ll pick an AG who won’t do it, maybe justify the choice by pointing out that they need to get confirmed, but a pardon in defiance of his own party’s impeachment? The reaction within the party would be nuclear.

That seems like an oversight to me.

It’s deliberate. War crimes are committed against other nations’ people, that means they both often aren’t covered by US domestic law and matter a lot less to the public.

Edited by Silasw on Nov 17th 2020 at 6:02:24 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#339756: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:01:25 AM

The President can only pardon Federal crimes, so if the city or state of New York tries to charge him with something, it's out of The President's hands.

Leviticus 19:34
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#339757: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:01:45 AM

I believe the President should be immune to prosecution in office but out of office, arrest Trump for everything.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#339758: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:03:20 AM

I have no doubt there are ways that Biden could encourage an investigation if he wanted, sadly he's Biden and thus has a delusional and insipid desire for national unity. No, if Trump is going to be charged for his many crimes then it will have to be done at the state level.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 17th 2020 at 10:03:57 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#339759: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:06:09 AM

Biden is correct that we need to stop treating one side as the enemy but if one side is attacking you, the war is already begun.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#339760: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:14:23 AM

Meanwhile, autistic people are joining politics. On both sides of the political spectrum.

In addition to Benham, two other state legislators — Democrat Yuh-Line Niou of New York and Republican Briscoe Cain of Texas — have said they are autistic, but Cain didn’t reveal his diagnosis until after he was elected. He did so in a speech on the Texas House floor last year, when he proposed a resolution to make April Autism Awareness Month. Niou first spoke about her autism in an interview with a website run by college students when she ran in 2016, and elaborated on it after she was elected.

By contrast, Benham, a Democrat, was openly autistic when she announced her run for office last year, and she made it a central part of her persona as a candidate.

“But having somebody who is loud and proud, as it were, means that people can’t ignore the way their policies impact people like me.”

As something that potentially affects me personally, I'm a little excited for this. I hope it will eventually lead to better understanding, acceptance, possibly policies that help us.

Edited by BonsaiForest on Nov 17th 2020 at 1:15:24 PM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#339761: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:19:31 AM

As something that potentially affects me personally, I'm a little excited for this. I hope it will eventually lead to better understanding, acceptance, possibly policies that help us.

I'm sure that like every other representation the Republicans have, they will use it to show that "anyone can do it", pay lip service to the idea in people's faces, and use it to implement regressive policies wherever possible.

It's neither good nor bad at the moment.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#339762: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:19:50 AM

Biden is correct that we need to stop treating one side as the enemy but if one side is attacking you, the war is already begun.

So... he's wrong?

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#339763: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:22:10 AM

Or... his goals and desires are correct but his timing is wrong?

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#339764: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:22:34 AM

I can sadly easily see the Republicans using the few people who made it as an excuse to claim that discrimination isn't real. I know that dirty trick.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#339765: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:25:45 AM

You can generally count on Republicans to be horrible given any opportunity.

The fact that they cheat while Democrats play fair is unfortunate, but the only way we can have a country that operates on the rule of law is if we maintain the rule of law. That means not throwing people in jail for political reasons, but rather going through the proper process of investigation and prosecution.

This also means that people who commit crimes under a political agenda should indeed be prosecuted. If Biden's Justice Department gives all these people a pass, it'll be just as bad a problem as if Biden himself orders all his enemies thrown in jail.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#339766: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:28:35 AM

That's a false equivalence, though.

The problem is that the Republicans are constantly breaking the law, obstructing justice, and underming democracy. The only way to maintain those institutions is to arrest and prosecute them. It's a political act only so much as one side of the political divide is made of criminals.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#339767: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:30:00 AM

I'm not looking forward to seeing the conspiracy nuts go wild after prosecutions happen, but happen they must.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#339768: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:36:43 AM

[up][up] It's not a false equivalence. We need justice to be done, and that means following proper investigative and prosecutorial process, not knee-jerk arresting people. If Biden ordered the black-bagging of every ICE employee on Day 1 of his term, he would rightly be accused of being a dictator.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 17th 2020 at 1:37:27 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#339769: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:40:43 AM

I'm also not holding my breath about Trump being pardoned for federal charges. Biden will want to defuse and appease the right, and a pardon would help there. And yes, the left would be mad about it, but the left aren't the ones threatening to overthrow democracy over it.

Oh no, Biden isn't going to give Trump a pardon. That'd be silly.

Biden intends to be entirely hands-off on the topic of pursuing or not pursuing criminal charges against Trump. Which is how the Justice Department is supposed to work. It's not meant to be a cudgel for POTUS to wield against political rivals. "Because POTUS said so" is not a good basis for criminal investigations.

If the federal justice department decides to pursue Trump, Biden will let them. But he's not going to order them to do it. Because ordering them to arrest his political rivals is corrupt.

But don't hold your breath about them doing it.

I don't think Trump would succeed in pardoning himself before he leaves. If he tried, there would be a massive outcry if the Supreme Court ruled in his favor, and barring Karen Barrett or Alito, I don't think any of the justices would want to risk that outcry.

I don't think SCOTUS cares about public outcry. They aren't going to rule in Trump's favor out of some sense of loyalty to Trump personally, but they also aren't going to rule against him out of some sense of loyalty to the American public either.

SCOTUS Justices are immune to consequences for their rulings. They will never face re-election, never face re-appointment, and their terms are forever. They do not care what anybody, anywhere, thinks of their rulings because nobody else's opinion will ever affect their jobs again. This is supposed to put them above partisanship and it sort of works, but you can't actually prevent people from having ideological biases.

And so every Supreme Court Justice has their own personal interpretation of the law. Conservative justices interpret the text on paper in conservative ways while liberal justices interpret the text on paper in liberal ways. Conservative and liberal justices aren't beholden to party politics - or the will of the American people, for that matter - but wherever there is an ounce of wiggle room, you can usually expect them to lean in that one way or the other.

Their job is to look at the text on paper and say, "This is what that actually means," and their ideological biases influence their reading.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 17th 2020 at 10:42:15 AM

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clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#339770: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:45:57 AM

[up]I think though that some of the conservative justices may worry about a Democrat president being able to self-pardon, so they would not want to inadvertently set a precedent leading to that kind of scenario.

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#339771: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:46:17 AM

[up][up][up] You're going under the assumption that we're not going to do that Fighteer, calm down.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Nov 17th 2020 at 1:46:36 PM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Perseus Since: Nov, 2009
#339772: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:53:03 AM

[up][up][up][up] I'm quite certain no one here is saying they shouldn't be subject to due process, but rather treating it as given that due process would end with arrests because the people in question are so blatantly corrupt.

Edited by Perseus on Nov 18th 2020 at 5:55:07 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#339773: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:55:04 AM

Or... his goals and desires are correct but his timing is wrong?

~RainehDaze If a goal is in the "wrong time" then by definition it is not correct.

Preaching national unity while one side will never ever agree to it, and is actively attacking you, is at best disingenuous at worst actively suicidal. Which really says it all about his "national unity" malarkey, that it's only defensible if we assume that he's lying.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#339774: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:59:29 AM

Please don't use that bloody notification thing, I hate it seeming like someone's sent me a PM when, no, it's just a post I'm going to get around to seeing anyway...

I would say overly idealistic, not insipid and delusional. Also, we just had four years of a president going "HALF THE COUNTRY IS EVIL" and that only made things worse. It might appear pointless to preach the opposite but you have a binary choice here and one of them is inherently dangerous and radicalising.

ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#339775: Nov 17th 2020 at 10:59:34 AM

Also there is nothing inherently wrong with what Biden said.

He's perfectly right to say that any investigations will lead to more division and strife, because they will. He's perfectly right to say we need unity over division, because we do.

I read it as less "Lets brush everything Trump did under the rug" and more "You know it SUCKS that we are going to have to investigate a former POTUS for crimes committed while in office but it needs to be done...and its going to be a shit show, but still needs to happen."


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