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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#339726: Nov 17th 2020 at 8:12:50 AM

Yes, if we determine via a politically independent investigation that they broke the law. That means Biden cannot command it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#339727: Nov 17th 2020 at 8:14:15 AM

No.

ICE should be arrested for crimes against the United States, State Law or Local law. If the laws we have on the books can be used, God Speed. If not then we need to amend the laws to make sure shit like this NEVER happens again.

Regulations, Laws and such are usually written in blood for a reason because there is always a case where what we THINK is common sense/decency isn't as common as we think so ergo we need a law against it.

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#339728: Nov 17th 2020 at 8:21:15 AM

Well, its in violation of articles 5,6,9,12,13,14, and 25 of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, at minimum.

And I agree with the above, if its not already against a law here, why not have them extradited to the Hague so they can prosecute them from crimes against international law?

Edited by AzurePaladin on Nov 17th 2020 at 11:21:25 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#339729: Nov 17th 2020 at 8:23:20 AM

I told you Biden would be hesitant to do anything that causes more division. Backing off investigating Trump is part of that strategy to avoid more division.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#339730: Nov 17th 2020 at 8:24:24 AM

[up][up] If I recall, there's a law against our people being judged by international courts we are not a part of. Meaning we should join that court and then send them.

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#339731: Nov 17th 2020 at 8:43:31 AM

I just looked it up, its really not easy to get somebody to the Hague for Crimes in Against Humanity. It'll take somebody else (as in a country/nation) to make the case and then the tribunal to be set up to investagate the charges.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#339732: Nov 17th 2020 at 8:49:07 AM

It's also against U.S. law to extradite our citizens to the Hague, so...

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#339733: Nov 17th 2020 at 8:51:27 AM

A law unsurprisingly created by Republicans back during the Bush administration.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Nov 17th 2020 at 11:51:50 AM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#339734: Nov 17th 2020 at 8:51:41 AM

I'd imagine that New York State will be leading in Trump prosecutions, then. I dunno, is any of the crimes they are accusing him of jail-worthy?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#339735: Nov 17th 2020 at 8:53:22 AM

[up] Tax evasion. Remember, charges on that took down Al Capone.

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#339736: Nov 17th 2020 at 8:54:43 AM

Biden was never going to order the Justice Department to lock up his Presidential predecessor. Despite how justified it may be, kicking off his Presidency with the optics of brutal dictatorship would not be good for restoring public faith in our democracy and in Democrats' ability to lead.

And that's fine because the federal Justice Department should decide for themselves who to investigate and prosecute. They are not supposed to be the President's cudgel to be wielded against political enemies. Whether the Justice Department decides to or not to investigate Trump, Biden will be hands off, which is how the Justice Department is meant to function.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 17th 2020 at 8:58:14 AM

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minseok42 A Self-inflicted Disaster from A Six-Tatami Room (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
A Self-inflicted Disaster
#339737: Nov 17th 2020 at 8:55:06 AM

Wikipedia has an article on the law banning extradition to the Hague. Nicknamed the "Hague invasion act", it authorizes POTUS to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court"

Edited by minseok42 on Nov 18th 2020 at 1:57:11 AM

"Enshittification truly is how platforms die"-Cory Doctorow
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#339738: Nov 17th 2020 at 8:57:41 AM

Biden’s private statements about wanting to avoid division aren’t what’s key, what’s key is who he puts in charge of the Justice Department, does he pick someone willing to investigate all crimes regardless of who committed them, or someone who will avoid investigating Republicans due to political concerns?

We’re gonna have to wait for an announcement on his candidate for AG, which is something he might well not announce until after the Georgia runoffs.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#339739: Nov 17th 2020 at 8:57:47 AM

I told you Biden would be hesitant to do anything that causes more division. Backing off investigating Trump is part of that strategy to avoid more division.

The problem with that is that it allows evil to fester and grow and normalizes their behavior.

ICE is a great example as everyone basically ignored that they were that evil. They made excuses, they suggested it was a small segment of it, and they implied it wasn't that bad. Then it started doing Nazi shit because people let them.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 17th 2020 at 8:59:23 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#339741: Nov 17th 2020 at 8:58:58 AM

But realistically speaking, and I've been saying this for years: y'all need to prepare yourselves for the likelihood that the federal government is going to get cold feet about arresting a former POTUS. I know some have been waiting in eager anticipation for the headline, "Donald Trump dragged kicking and screaming into a squad car by cops, shattering his pride once and for all and also making everyone in the country finally stop supporting him!"

But that's very rarely what happens. That's literally one of the problems we're trying to solve in this country. People like Donald Trump get away with murder. There are no consequences for the rich and powerful, and Trump is a member of the most prestigious class of rich and powerful in the country: ex-Presidents of the United States.

It is intensely likely that Trump will be allowed to walk away scot free for purely political reasons. Our laws don't apply to him, never have, and there's not really any reason to believe that they're about to start applying.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 17th 2020 at 9:00:15 AM

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ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#339742: Nov 17th 2020 at 9:04:50 AM

[up] They'll start applying due to one reason...Trump has basically pissed off even the rich. Remember, if the rich want somebody to be arrested, they'll be arrested. Wall Street despises Trump, and they will not want him to get away with anything.

So he'll get his comeuppance. If not through the courts, they'll make sure by the time they're done with him, he won't have any money left and be left homeless. Because he owes a lot of people money. If all of them come knocking at the same time for it, they'll have to take things that belong to him as collateral. Like his golf courses, his hotels, a lot of his stuff to pay for his debts.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Nov 17th 2020 at 12:06:48 PM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#339743: Nov 17th 2020 at 9:06:41 AM

[up]Assuming he hasn't croaked and gone off to Tartarus by then.

Edited by clemont107 on Nov 17th 2020 at 12:11:37 PM

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Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#339744: Nov 17th 2020 at 9:34:21 AM

Charles is right, it is unfair and unjust.

But Tobias is also right: as an ex president, Trump is the cream of the crop of the rich and powerful in the US now, like it or not, and he will have lots of powerful friends who are still willing to bail him out. And any administration will be hesitant to put their finger on the scale in actively condemning a former president.

Biden will absolutely put unity and peace over prosecution and revenge (and yes, part of this comes from a need for revenge against Trump).

I'm also not holding my breath about Trump being pardoned for federal charges. Biden will want to defuse and appease the right, and a pardon would help there. And yes, the left would be mad about it, but the left aren't the ones threatening to overthrow democracy over it.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#339745: Nov 17th 2020 at 9:36:43 AM

There's a good argument that the division in this country and its hatred is caused by not prosecuting Nixon or Bush.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
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Lost in Space
#339746: Nov 17th 2020 at 9:42:43 AM

Nixon was pardoned, so was immune to federal prosecution. Bush's crimes were mostly war-related and we explicitly don't do that around here.

It is widely suspected that one of Trump's last official acts will be to pardon all of his cronies and himself. That would probably trigger a SCOTUS case about whether the President can self-pardon, and Trump would probably win that.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#339747: Nov 17th 2020 at 9:44:08 AM

I do think the status of president should stop being mythologized and protected.

If a president turns out to be a criminal, they should be arrested for it. The people should know that they are capable of fucking up. That they're capable of being duped into electing a shitty person. That way they might hopefully be more careful next time.

Protecting presidents no matter what they do just empowers future presidents to do whatever they want. What tangible benefit is there to doing that?

Kaze ni Nare!
clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#339748: Nov 17th 2020 at 9:47:17 AM

I don't think Trump would succeed in pardoning himself before he leaves. If he tried, there would be a massive outcry if the Supreme Court ruled in his favor, and barring Karen Barrett or Alito, I don't think any of the justices would want to risk that outcry.

If I recall, Biden said he would not pardon Trump if the latter were charged. Even if Trump isn't immediately arrested, it is most likely that the NY state charges against him will proceed, and at best he would be sentenced to house arrest. I don't think he's getting out of this one.

Edited by clemont107 on Nov 17th 2020 at 12:47:39 PM

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#339749: Nov 17th 2020 at 9:49:39 AM

Nixon was pardoned, so was immune to federal prosecution. Bush's crimes were mostly war-related and we explicitly don't do that around here.

That seems like an oversight to me.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#339750: Nov 17th 2020 at 9:51:03 AM

He needs to pardon everyone, including Pence... then resign, then Pence would pardon him.


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