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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#339226: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:35:11 PM

I've seen a lot of people drawing conclusions about this race before we even have all the numbers and a lot of it seems overly simplified one way or the other, usually favoring whatever conclusion the person in question already wanted(i.e "moderate democrats/progressives are causing us to lose!"). As people have pointed out, running on M 4 A in a deep blue district is different from doing that in a red-leaning or deep red one. Saying that all the people running on it won while the moderates lost doesn't automatically mean moderates no longer work as seen by Biden's victory. It's also true that Florida is looking more red-leaning thanks to the cuban vote, but they also voted for a higher minimum wage.

That's why I'm saying it's probably a more nuanced picture than some people are giving it credit for. The only thing that we can conclude at this point is that democrats could probably do a better job of reaching out to latin voters, albeit with some of those groups like cubans I think it will be extremely difficult to get a foothold.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Nov 13th 2020 at 6:38:31 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#339227: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:37:12 PM

That and I'm seriously irritated by people treating Medicare For All as a silver bullet that will magically turn us into a progressive nation or something. A public option will get us there with a lot less trauma, and ultimately what matters is that these measures pass and get enacted. You can have the grandest ideas in the world but if they don't get enough votes, they don't happen.

Single-payer health insurance was on the table in the New Deal but dropped over defections from ... racist Democrats. Now, those racists are Republicans, but they still have a voice, and that voice says "give black people healthcare over our dead bodies". Those voices vote.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 13th 2020 at 4:38:24 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#339228: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:37:57 PM

Before we get into Progressive vs. Moderate Slamfest XXXVIII:

In my opinion, killing the filibuster offers very little downside both from a moral and practical perspective. Republicans don't really seem to need it to get everything they want even when they don't have 60 seats, and if it ever becomes inconvenient for them they would get rid of it instantly. But getting rid of it allows the democrats to actually do stuff without needing to care about Mitch's bad faith demands. Obama of all people has already said they should get rid of it, citing its use in the Jim Crow era to block civil rights legislation, and Obama is far from being a radical, so that says a lot right there.

Adding DC and Puerto Rico as states is morally correct and also in the case of the latter isn't even guaranteed to benefit democrats anyway, more realistically they would need to fight hard to make Puerto ricans trust them and win their votes.

We already know that nuking the filibuster is likely dead in the water, as is consequently adding DC and Puerto Rico as states, so what does that leave?

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Nov 13th 2020 at 4:39:09 AM

i'm tired, my friend
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#339229: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:38:10 PM

biden was chose in part to return to normancy

There's no evidence to suggest this to my knowlege, the polling for Biden vs Sanders show that electability was the main factor that people voted for Biden, rather than policy.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#339230: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:40:40 PM

[up][up]I was mostly talking in hypotheticals and the medium term, not the immediate future. Unfortunately, I'm not really sure what options Biden is going to have besides EO's unless the republican obstructions pisses off democrat senators so much that they say "fuck it".

Edited by Draghinazzo on Nov 13th 2020 at 6:42:08 AM

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#339231: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:40:58 PM
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#339232: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:42:26 PM

For what can be done if Dems win the Georgia runoffs you’re looking at either a non-nuclear reform of the filibuster or stuff that can be passed through reconciliation.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#339233: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:42:54 PM

Also it's wholly possible that those Moderate purple districts that were lost underperformed on execution rather than policy - which was the thrust of AOC's initial criticism of them, after all. But this is the sort of thing you need a proper invetigation into.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
astrokitty Happiness is a cup of tea from Somewhere Out There Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Happiness is a cup of tea
#339234: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:45:39 PM

And if Republicans take those two senate seats (which they probably will), then we're just going to have four years of either nothing changing or things becoming even worse.

Somebody once told me the world was macaroni, I took a bite out of a tree
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#339235: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:46:37 PM

Two, if we're lucky.

i'm tired, my friend
clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#339236: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:46:44 PM

[up]x5 This seems like Donnie's petty revenge on Dem states for losing the election. Does he actually have the power to enforce that?

Edited by clemont107 on Nov 13th 2020 at 4:46:51 AM

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#339237: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:49:32 PM

Given that the vaccine won't be available for anything like mass distribution until he's out of office: no

"You can reply to this Message!"
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#339238: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:58:45 PM

Norms mean nothing if only one sides adheres to them, it is foolish to play a game where only one side has to follow the rules.

That being said no Republicans will be arrested by the Biden administration. The best you can hope for is Biden for him to recognize that Trumpism grew under the Obama administration and be more aggressive in attempting to deal with the factors that created Trumpism. I think going back to normal is impossible, if the problems that created Trumpism are not mitigated, we will be back here in 4 years.

Edited by Overlord on Nov 13th 2020 at 1:59:21 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#339239: Nov 13th 2020 at 2:01:50 PM

If Biden gives political orders to the justice department (which is what you’re implying with the idea that Republicans will be immune to arrest) he would face hell to pay from within the Democratic Party.

There is exactly one tool it’s legitimate for him to use, that’s pardons, anything beyond that would be political meddling in criminal investigation.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#339240: Nov 13th 2020 at 2:03:13 PM
Thumped: This post was thumped by moderation to preserve the dignity of the author.
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#339241: Nov 13th 2020 at 2:03:46 PM

Not even if it was, I'd say. Surely the president doesn't get to decide which state gets a vaccine and which doesn't. That would be insane under any president.

On another topic, how does Biden compare to Obama politically? Can we expect a similar presidency from Biden?

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#339242: Nov 13th 2020 at 2:04:26 PM

If anything, I could see him standing aside if the Justice Department went after the Republicans of its own volition. No need to put your own neck on the line when the feds were likely gathering and keeping track of crimes the past four years in preparation of this day.

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#339243: Nov 13th 2020 at 2:05:47 PM

No Republicans will be arrested by the Biden administration because there's nothing to arrest them for.

As of August 7 different Trump advisers had faced criminal charges even with a justice department stacked in their favour, so I really don’t know where you’re getting the idea that Republicans don’t commit crimes from.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#339244: Nov 13th 2020 at 2:11:08 PM

If we arrest the entire Republican leadership there would be blood in the streets, and I'm not talking about domestic terrorism. I mean, insurrection if not outright civil war.

Even if such a move was dejure permitted it would be defacto extremely dangerous.

Frankly, the refusal to punish Republicans who BREAK THE LAW and regularly has destroyed Democracy in America. For example, Postmaster General Dejoy should spend the rest of his life behind bars. If you don't support that, you are his accomplice in my opinion.

As of August 7 different Trump advisers had faced criminal charges even with a justice department stacked in their favour, so I really don’t know where you’re getting the idea that Republicans don’t commit crimes from.

https://time.com/5556331/mueller-investigation-indictments-guilty-pleas/

Here's a list of the ones arrested for the Mueller Report.

What a despicable gang of criminal scum.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 13th 2020 at 2:12:50 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#339245: Nov 13th 2020 at 2:17:38 PM

If we arrest the entire Republican leadership there would be blood in the streets, and I'm not talking about domestic terrorism. I mean, insurrection if not outright civil war.

I'd rather have a civil war than allowing people to continue breaking the law with impunity out of fear of what their supporters might do.

If the deplorables rebel, treat them like any other armed criminal.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#339246: Nov 13th 2020 at 2:22:15 PM

The Sanders people seriously need to STFU. Biden won. There is no definite evidence that "more progressive" policies would have fared better.

People are blaming leftists for down-ballot losses, you can't expect us not to respond.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#339248: Nov 13th 2020 at 2:24:39 PM

I think most people would rather not have another civil war.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#339249: Nov 13th 2020 at 2:25:12 PM

Frankly, the refusal to punish Republicans who BREAK THE LAW and regularly has destroyed Democracy in America. For example, Postmaster General Dejoy should spend the rest of his life behind bars. If you don't support that, you are his accomplice in my opinion.

I'm not talking about punishing Republicans, you specifically mentioned arresting their leadership.

Well, they need to stop that too.

I couldn't agree more, but as long as the issue is clearly ideological we're going to have to push ours.

There is a wrong way to do it, such as Jacobin calling Biden's victory "pathetic", but I don't think it's unreasonable for leftists to push leftism as a solution to our troubling down-ballot results.

One can disagree of course but that doesn't make it fundamentally illegitimate.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#339250: Nov 13th 2020 at 2:26:02 PM

[up][up]Of course. But if the choices are "civil war" or "tolerate blatant criminal behavior on a nationwide scale," I'd pick the former.

Not that I think Fourthspartan is right, but even if he is.


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