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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#339201: Nov 13th 2020 at 11:30:08 AM

[up][up]Which is why Biden can work on removing him from the court for being partial. As an added bonus, if Injustice Karen shows similar hostility to nonpartisanship, Biden can remove her as well.

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#339202: Nov 13th 2020 at 11:32:43 AM

Tobias, 48 percent of voters wanted Trump. We're already tipping on the edge of being a complete write-off as a nation, and a species not far after that. We can only stand for truth and reality and work hard to get other people to accept those things.

If we write ourselves off as a nation and a species, what does that accomplish? We still have to exist as humans in this country. That's just self-defeating.

My point is that if we want to win elections, we need to do things. And we need our voters to see us doing things. It's not enough to try, fail, and shrug our shoulders and go, "That's the system. I don't know what more you want from me."

When Republicans cheat and we let them cheat because we don't want to dirty our hands, that does not encourage people to vote for us. When Republicans get to put three Supreme Court Justices on the bench because Obama wasn't willing to be pushy about Merrick Garland and Mithc shamed him into staying silent about Trump's Russian connections, that does not encourage people to vote for us.

Voters turned out for Obama because they wanted the change he promised. And don't get me wrong, Obama tried. He made what progress he could. But whenever he hit the brick wall of Republican obstruction, he was unwilling to grab a drill. And that cost us. Badly.

We can't just count on voters still hating Trump in 2022 and 2024. If we want to excite leftists into turning out, Biden needs to be ready to play hard ball against the Republicans.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 13th 2020 at 11:33:01 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#339203: Nov 13th 2020 at 11:33:08 AM

[up][up][up]True, but its up to them to make that step.

[up][up]You need a super majority to remove SC Justices. Its not happening.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Nov 13th 2020 at 3:33:29 PM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#339204: Nov 13th 2020 at 11:33:11 AM

[up][up][up] That requires a Senate supermajority sadly. Short of them dying to COVID or us flipping Senate seats in 2022, we're not getting rid of them due to the Republicans.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Nov 13th 2020 at 2:33:40 PM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#339205: Nov 13th 2020 at 11:35:18 AM

Couldn't Biden have any offending justices arrested for treason? I don't think that would actually require the Senate's approval.

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#339206: Nov 13th 2020 at 11:37:50 AM

Unless a Supreme Court Justice decides to join ISIS or a similar group, that it is off the table.

And arresting judges you don't like for sedition or some shit is the definition of authoritarianism.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#339207: Nov 13th 2020 at 11:41:23 AM

Supreme Court justices are literally immune from that. It's not happening.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
clemont107 Mega Togekiss?! from Land of Missed Opportunities (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Mega Togekiss?!
#339208: Nov 13th 2020 at 11:43:50 AM

Trump was an authoritarian throughout his entire 4-year term. Personally I wouldn't mind Biden doing everything he could do to reverse what the Republicans did, even if the action seems dirty, because it would be less worse than what Trump did.

"Wow, no Mega Togekiss in Legends Z-A. Or any non-Froslass new Sinnoh Mega Evolutions. Round of applause, everybody." - Dawn
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#339209: Nov 13th 2020 at 11:44:06 AM

If I recall correctly, the 'stages of grief' model isn't as reliable or as founded as it's commonly stated. I could be wrong about that, though.

Regarding treason: No, it's impossible to commit treason by its legal definition currently. It's a crime that can only be committed during a declared war against a nation state. Wars don't work that way anymore, so nobody can be charged with treason.

Edited by Protagonist506 on Nov 13th 2020 at 11:45:15 AM

Leviticus 19:34
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#339210: Nov 13th 2020 at 11:44:52 AM

We walk a tightrope here. It is important for the short term that we fix the damage Trump did, but it is critical for the long term that we restore a sense of legitimacy to U.S. democracy, and that is only done by adhering to norms, not continuing to violate them. Otherwise it'll be a constant oscillation between a right-wing authoritarian and a left-wing authoritarian.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 13th 2020 at 2:45:38 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#339211: Nov 13th 2020 at 11:50:29 AM

Exactly. This is the kind of "They go low, we go high" people are always talking about. It doesn't mean being defenseless in the face of evil. It does however mean NOT stooping down to their level. We cannot fight "bad" authoritarianism with "good" authoritarianism, it doesn't work that way.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#339212: Nov 13th 2020 at 11:58:56 AM

And the idea that sail way with trump I have to remind that biden, the moderate centrist was chosen and not sanders, we have to understand that in a sense, biden was chose in part to return to normancy and why that much is imposible to get back, people does want a good process to be held.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#339213: Nov 13th 2020 at 12:45:17 PM

The president can’t have people arrested, that fact is the only reason Biden is a free man, because Trump very much would have had him thrown in jail if it was possible.

And as people have pointed out treason wouldn’t be the viable charge even if the justice department did investigate Republicans, the only way it could become a viable charge would be if Republicans colluded with another nation that was a declared enemy, that probably means someone the US had declared war against, at a stretch you could try and extend it to a nation that’s having the “Trading with the Enemy” act applied to it.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#339214: Nov 13th 2020 at 12:52:11 PM

Is more than that, as this polarization rate go own it will affect the way the parties interact with each other and even if the posiblity of bipartiship be posible in the future as "no hold down, eveyrthing to win" become the norm from now on.

The problem is this is already the norm the republicans play by and they aren't going to stop when they see it's working.

So basically, this creates two really bad potential scenarios.

The first is the democrats playing business as usual despite the republican party acting in bad faith. The Senate is difficult for democrats to gain a majority in, and ridiculously implausible for democrats to gain a 60 seat majority in. This means that at best in a short and medium-term, democratic presidents (if they win election) will have to rule by executive order which can be easily undone by a republican if they win office, therefore putting the country in a deadlock and making international relations unstable as foreign leaders won't know whether the US will have a sane person in control of the presidency every 4 years.

And this is before you take into account how republicans are constantly undermining democratic norms anyway, trying to cast doubt on the process and giving every advantage possible to themselves in bad faith so they can enforce minority rule. So unfortunately, the US sliding into authoritarianism is already looking disturbingly plausible.

The second potential scenario is the democrats taking a more aggressive stance to fight back against the GOP, potentially risking a backlash from moderates and energizing the republican base even more than usual (I don't know how much this would matter honestly, they already hate the left so much at this point regardless and vote consistently), and making the GOP strike back even harder if they win an election. The question then becomes, how far should they go and what would the public find fair?

In my opinion, killing the filibuster offers very little downside both from a moral and practical perspective. Republicans don't really seem to need it to get everything they want even when they don't have 60 seats, and if it ever becomes inconvenient for them they would get rid of it instantly. But getting rid of it allows the democrats to actually do stuff without needing to care about Mitch's bad faith demands. Obama of all people has already said they should get rid of it, citing its use in the Jim Crow era to block civil rights legislation, and Obama is far from being a radical, so that says a lot right there.

Adding DC and Puerto Rico as states is morally correct and also in the case of the latter isn't even guaranteed to benefit democrats anyway, more realistically they would need to fight hard to make Puerto ricans trust them and win their votes.

I think the realm of court packing and anything more than that is where things start to get more dicey from a PR perspective.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Nov 13th 2020 at 5:53:27 PM

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#339215: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:04:26 PM

"Couldn't Biden have any offending justices arrested for treason? I don't think that would actually require the Senate's approval."

I'm sorry, what? On what grounds? This is insane; it's unconstitutional and a waste of public good will.

There isn't a quick fix to dealing with the GOP and there never was. The Democrats need to grind it out every day for the next four years establishing the fundamentals of a party infrastructure, not hope for bizarre scenarios to rescue them. Like, there's an overwhelming focus on election-adjacent government within the American left, and it's either because of a sense of defeatism in the process or a disinterest in it, and it's damned annoying.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#339216: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:12:13 PM

Arrested for what, being Republican? I'm not sure what the grounds would be.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#339217: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:15:16 PM

Honestly, there's some decent RICO precedents for the Republican leadership.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 13th 2020 at 1:15:23 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#339219: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:17:11 PM

Honestly, there's some decent RICO precedents for the Republican leadership.

If we arrest the entire Republican leadership there would be blood in the streets, and I'm not talking about domestic terrorism. I mean, insurrection if not outright civil war.

Even if such a move was dejure permitted it would be defacto extremely dangerous.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 13th 2020 at 1:17:28 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#339220: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:27:14 PM

We cannot fight "bad" authoritarianism with "good" authoritarianism, it doesn't work that way.

And where do we draw the line between stepping around Republican obstruction and "'good' authoritarianism"? Because guess what; if you give 200 Democrats a stick and tell them to draw that line, you're gonna get 40 different lines.

i'm tired, my friend
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#339221: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:30:10 PM

And the idea that sail way with trump I have to remind that biden, the moderate centrist was chosen and not sanders, we have to understand that in a sense, biden was chose in part to return to normancy and why that much is imposible to get back, people does want a good process to be held.
Less than half the states chose. Remember, Primaries take place over months. The winner is known so far in advance before the last states even get to vote. We cannot say that he was chosen with the majority of the democratic vote when a lot of votes do not matter in the primaries, just the first half of states. After Super Tuesday, your vote may as well not matter for a primary if you're in one of the last 20 states going to vote for the nominee, the person has always been chosen by that point.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Nov 13th 2020 at 4:31:03 AM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#339222: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:31:15 PM

The Sanders people seriously need to STFU. Biden won. There is no definite evidence that "more progressive" policies would have fared better.

Edit: Not that you're [up] saying that, just throwing it out there.

The United States got where it is in the world by establishing stable institutions and continuity of governance. We should treat the Trump era as an aberration, not seek to emulate it.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 13th 2020 at 4:32:50 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#339223: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:33:13 PM

[up] Well to be honest, in terms of people going up for election...it seems that every person who was for M 4 A won at the polls in the democratic party. Those who were not for it, ended up losing. Not to say that correlation equals causation, just pointing out a trend.

On the case of the Republicans, it's out of our hands. We're basically praying for justice from the karma of the universe at this point, because we can't do anything about the Republican majority in the Senate, we can only make it an equal split (which is marginally better).

Edited by ScubaWolf on Nov 13th 2020 at 4:34:34 AM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#339224: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:34:56 PM

That's a correlation, but was that because the more progressive Democrats were more popular generally or because they were running in safer districts? You can afford to take more principled positions if you're 70-30 blue than if you're 51-49 blue.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#339225: Nov 13th 2020 at 1:35:08 PM

Yeah that’s seriously biased sampling, you need to look at how they did compared to their district’s baseline.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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