TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#33626: Oct 19th 2012 at 2:32:42 AM

If someone called your dad a liar, how might you feel?

RTaco Since: Jul, 2009
Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#33628: Oct 19th 2012 at 2:59:36 AM

@Tomu: It's a lot more complicated than that, though. Business taxation is complex, and quite often there's good reason for that, for instance all the rules about how quickly you can write off capital equipment (differing for each class of equipment, normally). Your overall point's solid, though.

Of course, the complexity also makes it worthwhile for companies to employ an army of accountants and tax lawyers to try and minimize tax bills, which is in the big picture wasted effort — expenses of compliance with tax law are not going towards anything productive with the economy.

A brighter future for a darker age.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#33629: Oct 19th 2012 at 3:41:43 AM

Gun industry thrives during Obama's term in office

Now I understand the NRA's fear-mongering.

edited 19th Oct '12 3:41:59 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#33630: Oct 19th 2012 at 4:00:05 AM

There's a bit of truth behind it, though; Democrats have, in fairly recent history, been responsible for most changes in firearms law toward more restrictive, and especially for laws that are pointless in terms of actual increases in safety but deeply angering for gun owners.

However, only one of the two men running for President has been responsible for new gun laws; Romney, who implemented a gun control regime in Massachusetts that's one of the most restrictive in the nation. Obama's made some vague noises that he'd like to see stricter gun laws, but has to date done absolutely nothing.

In my personal view, it's unlikely that either candidate would do anything to change existing gun laws, primarily because such would have to come from Congress, and I don't think we're going to see a strong majority in favor of new gun laws from any Congress we'll have in the next four years.

In my view, it should be possible to craft laws that reduce the real, actual harm that guns do in the hands of criminals without stepping on the toes of people for whom firearms are important tools or hobbies. The complete polarization, demonization and distrust between all sides, alas, means I don't see that in the near future.

Democrats need to distance themselves from absolute firearms abolitionists for gun owners to be willing to trust them, at all. Sane gun owners need to distance themselves from fucking nuts.

A brighter future for a darker age.
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#33631: Oct 19th 2012 at 4:27:33 AM

[up][up]Yup: makes perfect sense. tongue

Democrats need to distance themselves from absolute firearms abolitionists for gun owners to be willing to trust them, at all. Sane gun owners need to distance themselves from fucking nuts.
It'd be a good few steps, yes. smile I don't see why regulating gun-use to sane levels is trampling all over rights. After all, look at how vehicle management gets licensed, policed and enforced. Potentially dangerous machines (in the wrong/ irresponsible hands) need sane regulation to keep things ticking. <shrugs>

edited 19th Oct '12 4:31:22 AM by Euodiachloris

GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#33632: Oct 19th 2012 at 4:43:40 AM

The "trampling over all our rights" thing is a narrative used to fit individual events in.

Example:

Affordable Care Act -> new rules for healthcare by the government -> more government making more rules -> more rules means less liberty -> Obamacare is bad because it tramples over our rights.

See?

By the way, this is why facts alone don't do any convincing for tea-partiers. Because they shoehorn the facts into their preferred narrative—which is that the government is taking away their rights. Obama can do something as innocent as greeting schoolchildren and they'll complain about the Department of Education controlling education and make noises alleging indoctrination.

edited 19th Oct '12 4:45:41 AM by GlennMagusHarvey

Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#33633: Oct 19th 2012 at 4:54:52 AM

There are, though, movements quite allied with the Democrats who are in favor of complete civilian firearms bans, or certainly the degree of such that now exists in e.g. the United Kingdom (handguns banned, hunting weapons very difficult to acquire).

Car enthusiasts would behave the same way if large parts of the automobile regulations were being written or at least collaborated on by people whose ultimate aim was the outlawing of the private automobile.

A lot of the problem is the historic concentration of Democrat support in urban areas, really; urban areas have (comparatively) good policing, but also crime and violence problems, and few hunters and outdoors-people. Urban people are not very sensitive to the concerns of people who live in more rural communities or who engage more with nature; rural people tend not to be very sensitive to urban concerns. The US political divide tends to exacerbate those differences, to the impoverishment of all.

Someone who lives in a place where police response is likely 45 minutes away will be a lot more supportive of the right to armed self-defense, for instance.

edited 19th Oct '12 4:56:23 AM by Morven

A brighter future for a darker age.
entropy13 Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#33634: Oct 19th 2012 at 5:38:16 AM

Someone who lives in a place where police response is likely 45 minutes away will be a lot more supportive of the right to armed self-defense, for instance.

Guns can't help if he gets sick, his guns aren't responsible for teaching his children, his guns aren't the ones buying his chickens. There IS a hierarchy of needs, and even if you consider all rights (right to life, right to an education, right to bear arms, right to free speech) to be "equal" the NEEDS of the individual still affects those rights that they are still essentially not "equal" at all in terms of importance for an individual.

edited 19th Oct '12 5:40:30 AM by entropy13

Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#33635: Oct 19th 2012 at 5:50:44 AM

Nothing Obama can do would get him the support of gun folk. He's supposedly Anti-Gun because he just...apparently is.

Also I can't help but feel like Obama is going to lose. It just feels that way now. The fact its even this close is kind of astounding.

edited 19th Oct '12 5:51:24 AM by Thorn14

LostAnarchist Violence Is Necessary! from Neo Arcadia Itself Since: Sep, 2011
Violence Is Necessary!
#33636: Oct 19th 2012 at 6:57:31 AM

[up]More like rage-inducingly depressing...

Because - I feel this is relevant... http://www.denverpost.com/politics-national/2012/10/five-nightmare-scenarios-for-election-day/

And for the record, I want Obama to win... Otherwise,I'm going to get used to having to utilize vigilantism to get things done in my favor... Becausew I'm black and not that much of a Christian, either - two minorities conservatives hate btw...

edited 19th Oct '12 6:59:48 AM by LostAnarchist

This is where I, the Vampire Mistress, proudly reside: http://liberal.nationstates.net/nation=nova_nacio
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#33637: Oct 19th 2012 at 7:10:20 AM

The NRA has a perverse incentive to cry wolf about gun legislation under Democratic administrations. The reason, of course, is that by raising the specter of restrictions on the availability of guns, it encourages gun owners or would-be gun owners to go out and buy them immediately, thus boosting the financial position of the NRA and its backers.

This doesn't even require a grand conspiracy. It's just human nature.

As for the election, we haven't seen the full polling effects of the second debate, but I am expecting a significant bounce in Obama's favor.

edited 19th Oct '12 7:11:18 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
#33638: Oct 19th 2012 at 8:08:05 AM

[up][up] *sigh* Please accept my most heartfelt assurance that I and the vast majority of conservatives I know do not hate you. I'm pretty certain the Romney doesn't hate you either. Actually, there's probably a bigger split between him as a Mormon and me as an Evangelical than there is between either of us and the average irreligious black person.

As regards gun control, Morven summed it up nicely. It's not that Obama is a threat on gun control in and of himself, it's that he represents and gives legitimacy to the hardcore antigun crowd (or at least the liberal side of it: my grandmother is severely antigun but she won't vote democrat due to other policies they support).

<><
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#33639: Oct 19th 2012 at 8:13:46 AM

I guess I'm a bit disturbed by Romney taking the lead because the reception to him has been so lukewarm, if that makes any sense.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#33640: Oct 19th 2012 at 8:28:49 AM

Yahoo's polling ticker shows Obama ahead by 1% on the national vote and leading the electoral college 259 to 237. That's too close for comfort but it is not predicting a Romney win.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Belian In honor of my 50lb pup from 42 Since: Jan, 2001
In honor of my 50lb pup
#33641: Oct 19th 2012 at 8:36:10 AM

I have not been following this thread, though I probably should have been. Ether way, I'm sure you guys could use a little humor.

https://www.youtube.com/user/schmoyoho

Try not to grin at Auto Tuned debates.

Yu hav nat sein bod speeling unntil know. (cacke four undersandig tis)the cake is a lie!
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#33642: Oct 19th 2012 at 8:42:11 AM

Honestly, this whole thing with gun control is a perfect example of what I've been saying: Obama is conservative. He's been weak on gun control. He's introduced a corporatist healthcare law. He's waged undeclared wars in the Middle East and done drone strikes on countries we aren't at war at. He has made deficit and tax reduction a priority. Sure, he isn't anywhere near as conservative as Romney, but a moderate conservative is still conservative.

#33643: Oct 19th 2012 at 8:46:21 AM

[up][up][up] RCP actually has Romney/Ryan ahead by 5 electoral votes assigning the tossups. After the tossups, it's still an Obama/Biden win but Romney only needs to pick up 12 electoral votes to change that.

[up][up] That was actually a fairly decent summary of the debate.

[up] By broad standards the United States is conservative, so naturally any serious contender for its highest office is.

edited 19th Oct '12 8:51:28 AM by EdwardsGrizzly

<><
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#33645: Oct 19th 2012 at 8:56:43 AM

I thought he did. :P

...snark aside, re the opposition to gun control: I have a hunch (unproven of course) that there are three types of these people:

  • sportspeople/outdoorsy people/hunters
  • self-defenders (to protect themselves and family/friends from threatening people, animals, etc.)
  • anti-government (the "don't tread on me" tea-partier type)
Note: these types are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Does this make sense at all or is my assessment messed up? If the latter please correct.

ch00beh ??? from Who Knows Where Since: Jul, 2010
???
#33646: Oct 19th 2012 at 9:24:42 AM

Guns can't help if he gets sick, his guns aren't responsible for teaching his children, his guns aren't the ones buying his chickens.

replace "guns" with "freedom of speech" and that sentence is still true.

"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." Twitter
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#33647: Oct 19th 2012 at 9:28:09 AM

And the Bill of Rights was written more than two centuries ago, at a time when it was still plausible for some scrappy militiamen to defend a country against invasion or resist a tyrannical government. And there is still quibbling about the precise definition of a "well-organized militia".

These days, freedom of speech is more important than ever, while the right to bear arms becomes increasingly obsolete. The Constitution is not an immutable holy document. It was intended from the very beginning to evolve along with the country.

edited 19th Oct '12 9:35:25 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#33648: Oct 19th 2012 at 9:35:00 AM

@Fighteer: ...Except, Al Gore is also a moderate conservative. He wanted to decrease deficit and decrease taxes. He wanted to increase military spending. He was weakly pro-life. He supported the death penalty. Finally, he wanted faith-based organizations to replace government programs. He was a moderate conservative, though more moderate than Obama, but still a conservative.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#33649: Oct 19th 2012 at 9:35:59 AM

He was strongly environmentalist, but I take your point. A serious liberal seemingly cannot get elected President in this country.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ch00beh ??? from Who Knows Where Since: Jul, 2010
???
#33650: Oct 19th 2012 at 9:39:04 AM

For the record, I'm okay with smart gun laws—even full on licensing and competency tests and whatnot—but a full weapons ban is like trying to ban baseball bats because they're the second or third most used thing in home assaults.

Baseball doesn't cure cancer or teach numbers or pay for chickens, either. That's not why we keep it around.

"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." Twitter

Total posts: 417,856
Top