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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#335576: Oct 26th 2020 at 8:22:11 PM

I can only speak for myself when I say that I have not seriously tried to dissuade someone because, again speaking purely for myself, it simply isn't worth the argument.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#335577: Oct 26th 2020 at 8:22:43 PM

Well duh. You'd get defensive too if someone accused you of being friends with Nazis. Or implied it.

Edited by Redmess on Oct 26th 2020 at 4:23:47 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#335578: Oct 26th 2020 at 8:23:45 PM

2/3rds of the senate and a reason at least a majority of the public is going to buy. We cannot neglect that part. How they sell a potential impeachment to the public is important. It was important for Trump's impeachment as well.

Eh, I'd say compared to the impossible hurdle of "2/3rds of the Senate" having to convince the public is difficult but not impossible.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#335579: Oct 26th 2020 at 8:24:14 PM

I can understand why a lot of people, especially those lacking interpersonal skills, would not want to make the effort to reach out to Trump supporters, but I really don't think trying to discourage Redmess from trying is helpful. If someone wants to help their friend, who are we to stop them? Why would we want to? Even from a purely nonpersonal point of view, his success means one less person possibly going down the alt-right void. How is that a bad thing?

I mean, I don't really think it's fundamentally a bad idea for Redmess (or most people) to invest in people and try to sway them in a more positive direction. But on the flipside, you kinda have to accept that there are good reasons why someone might not want to do that either, so I don't view "it might be worth considering not engaging with this person any further" to be inherently bad advice, although maybe you could argue people should have worded that a bit differently. Because there is a cost of time and emotional energy to consider too.

Personally what bothered me more was some of the arguments being presented here, like how not wanting to spend time doing that sort of thing and judging conservatives negatively for supporting heinous policies is tantamount to wanting to annul their political rights or something. Weird tangent to say the least.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Oct 26th 2020 at 12:26:10 PM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#335580: Oct 26th 2020 at 8:25:43 PM

[up] I agree with you in principle, but some people here are distressingly eager to paint people as the worst of the worst.

What I meant by that last part is that it is a potential outcome of that sort of thinking we should be wary of, not that it is happening now.

Edited by Redmess on Oct 26th 2020 at 4:27:03 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#335581: Oct 26th 2020 at 8:34:37 PM

[up]The problem I have is less that your argument is totally invalid in a vacuum, and more that in this specific context it seems kind of removed from the situation at hand and comes across as...tone-deaf, especially since having a repulsion to people espousing these types of views is a hard thing to fault. Especially since this wasn't really about black and white thinking anyway.

All this is really about is whether and to what degree investing time in someone to help "deprogram" them is worth it, and there's not really a right or wrong answer a lot of the time since a lot of it depends on knowing the person on a more intimate level beyond what impression you could give from just a text description on an internet forum. There's broad advice that's helpful and you already got some of that, so I just hope for the best with whatever you decide to do.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#335582: Oct 26th 2020 at 8:37:22 PM

Well duh. You'd get defensive too if someone accused you of being friends with Nazis. Or implied it.

The only information you’ve shared with the thread about your friend is that they’re a pro-fascist anti-intellectual, and that they’re actively trying to bring about an election result that could mean the death of several people in this thread. You’ve painted a very bad picture of them, the fact that you want to help them become a better person is admirable, but it doesn’t change the fact that everything you have told us indicates that they are a very bad person.

Last time Trump won we had people in this thread whose friends faced such a risk to life they had to help them flee the country, so you’ve really come to the wrong place if you expect sympathy for Trump supporters or people who think they aren’t so bad.

Through the courts. I think by far the most likely - if not only plausible - scenario is challenging the results in key states they're unhappy with, and if those challenges get to the Supreme Court it's a certainty they'll be decided in Trump's favor.

It’s not a certainty that such a challenge will be decided in Trump’s favour, yes the Supreme Court is pro-Trump, but more than that they’re pro-themselves, they will not make a ruling so obviously undemocratic that it risks widespread violence that could be targeted at them.

Any recount will go to Trump, but once you’re outside recount territory the Supreme Court starts putting its own personal safety on the line for Trump.

Edited by Silasw on Oct 26th 2020 at 3:40:34 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#335583: Oct 26th 2020 at 8:39:07 PM

@Redmess -

Draginazzo is phrasing things a lot better than I did.

As far as Pepe goes, I understand it as an allusion to the "alt-right generally" which encompasses everyone from Trump supporters to Nazis. There's definitely a Venn Diagram there.

As far as redpilling, that was going to far to imply that it was currently going on, and I don't feel as strongly about that now with the context of why you were making the accusation of people wanting to ban political views. Although again I don't think that is a fair characterization of other posts in the thread.

But at the same time, you seem kind of cagey about your friends exact views, and you're arguing pretty vociferously that you should still be friends with them and that it is wrong or even immoral for anyone to suggest otherwise.

Which kind of gives me the impression, perhaps completely incorrectly, that there's at least something that you find them persuasive if not necessarily convincing on. Not a fan of the new Star Wars trilogy?

Edited by Hodor2 on Oct 26th 2020 at 10:48:05 AM

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#335584: Oct 26th 2020 at 9:00:54 PM

Sorry to double post. Just to note, @ Redmess and generally, I looked at my cellphone, and I saw that when I was reading the site on my phone, Redmess' post about banning political parties displayed as if it was a reply to my post about moral issues with Trump support. Because it was right below.

I really don't know what happened, and my response about red pilling was very much meant in that context.

Be friends with whoever you'd like. You are a better judge of their qualities than people in an anonymous thread, myself included. But at the same time, since we don't know who that person is, we aren't going to look at them from the sympathetic perspective you have from knowing them, and I think you should understand why you aren't getting unanimous encouragement.

Edited by Hodor2 on Oct 26th 2020 at 11:04:57 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#335585: Oct 26th 2020 at 9:02:19 PM

As we’ve discussed the whole idea of engaging with people who are heavily invested in disinformation it’s worth remembering to take precautions. It’s always admirable to try and help people move away from such things, but you need to also look out for yourself, that means keeping your guard up that you yourself don’t get swept into the disinformation, a lot of the alt-right YouTubers can be very charismatic from my understanding, so if people aren’t carful they can themselves end up going down that same path.

This isn’t to shut down people who want to take on the admirable task of trying to de-program friends or family who have fallen into that crowd, it’s just a reminder to be carful so that you yourself do not also become a victim.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#335586: Oct 26th 2020 at 9:24:45 PM

I've never said they are pro-fascist, they just believe Trump does not endorse fascists. That is quite a leap of logic there.

And no, they are not trying to convince me of anything, if anything, they just don't want to talk about politics at all. I was the one being curious about who they were voting for, and then wondering why they voted for Trump, since they don't really seem to be that kind of person. They are definitely in the LGBT crowd, for one.

Edited by Redmess on Oct 26th 2020 at 5:28:12 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#335587: Oct 26th 2020 at 9:27:28 PM

A lot of families have been broken by this administration.

Basically because the Trump supporters in the family believe his critics are being hyperbolic.

The Trump critics believe he's a kidnapper, rapist, and actively working to destroy minorities.

They don't get Trump comes off as DIFFERENT to people.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 26th 2020 at 9:29:29 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#335588: Oct 26th 2020 at 9:29:48 PM

I've never said they are pro-fascist,

You said they are pro-Trump, that’s the same thing.

They may be someone who is pro-fascist because they’ve convinced themselves that the fascists aren’t fascist, but that doesn’t change what they support.

I’m sure that many fascist regimes in history have had the support of people who were totally convinced that their regime wasn’t fascist, their delusion doesn’t change the fact that they helped fascists.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#335589: Oct 26th 2020 at 9:34:18 PM

Of note: an international study by an institute at the university of gothenburg has found that the GOP is much more similar now to an authoritarian far-right party such as the Turkish AKP than a conventional center right party.

I'm sure this will surprise absolutely no one but it's depressing that people have such an "ache" to normalize things that this would come across as a controversial statement nowadays.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#335590: Oct 26th 2020 at 9:48:02 PM

From the same site as the above: I'm curious what people think about this article?

Like pretty much all proposals along these lines, it mostly just sounds like attractive fantasy to me... but it does sound an infinitesimal bit less impossible than dividing straightforwardly along red state/blue state lines.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#335591: Oct 26th 2020 at 9:58:56 PM

It sounds insane.

The divide in the US isn’t actually between states so much as it’s between rural areas and urban areas. That’s before we get onto the big practical issues, like what you do with the many swing states or the fact that allowing the creation of a New Confederacy would result in horrific human rights abuses.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#335592: Oct 26th 2020 at 10:01:12 PM

[up][up] For a bit of context, the article headline is "America Needs a Trial Separation: Parallel States Might Be the Solution The division of Red and Blue America need not be permanent."

SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#335593: Oct 26th 2020 at 10:04:23 PM

I actually agree with Redmess here in that as far as I can remember being part of this forum, this forum has always advocated for "Cut out people with bad views on your life completely without giving them chance or else you are also a horrible person"

I mean, the latter part isn't usually said aloud, but its definitely recurring theme when someone tolerates friends and family with intolerant beliefs or bad sense of humor tongue

(granted people who still find pepe the frog memes funny don't tend to be worth being talked to, but I digress :p)

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#335594: Oct 26th 2020 at 10:08:00 PM

I wouldn't say always, but there were a few people like that who have since been banned from this forum because holding that perspective drove them to become increasingly hostile towards any kind of disagreement from other users including me (if you've spent any amount of time around me you should know I do not approve of fascism in the slightest) for being less fundie and finding blunt statements of "we should just let all rightwingers die" offputting.

That said Redmess's arguments are a touch naive as to who can and can't be redeemed. Sometimes it's just not worth it, as the amount of energy required to expend on it up going to waste to a futile cause. It's about being pragmatic, and trying to deprogram and engage with people too far in over more proactive forms of political engagement can be a real waste of time.

On the other hand being so stringent as to who to cut out of your life because of disagreeable views leads to its own form of left-cultism, and I would be incredibly disturbed by anyone who would judge me negatively for refusing to completely disown my father just because he expresses some unfortunate right-of-center views due to his upbringing that I'm not strong enough to completely deprogram him of. And trust me, I've seen people who really do encourage the collapse of family bonds over mild disagreements in politics.

Edited by AlleyOop on Oct 26th 2020 at 1:16:30 PM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#335595: Oct 26th 2020 at 10:08:37 PM

I think it’s because a lot of people here are victims of such horrible people. You come across as rather a dick when you tell someone who has just been seriously injured that you’re going to stay friends with the person who harmed them because “they’re not a completely bad person”.

I’ve had to have this discussion IRL, I ended up having to quote Dumbledore to give a friend of an abuse victim the push to stop being friends with the victim’s abuser.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#335596: Oct 26th 2020 at 10:17:18 PM

From the same site as the above: I'm curious what people think about this article?

It sounds stupid.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#335597: Oct 26th 2020 at 10:20:47 PM

There is a lot wrong with the idea, like the already mentioned fact that Red States have blue spots and Blue States have red spots.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#335598: Oct 26th 2020 at 10:27:41 PM

That's what I was thinking. States like california have a sizable amount of republican voters. You can't really create "two republics" without there being some kind of divide anyway.

And that's the thing I find silly about arguments like this: the presumption that in a nation most people should agree on common values makes sense on paper but that's just not what happens, at least given a big enough space. There will always be plurality of thought, sometimes in a more heinous direction.

nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#335599: Oct 26th 2020 at 10:28:56 PM

The division of the US into Blue and Red states is one of the most toxic effects of the Electoral College. (I use the terminology to describe the chances of winning elections, but beyond that think it's a poor shorthand.) Even the most Republican of states typically give Democrats at least a third of the vote and vice versa. The vast majority of states are split something like 60/40, and yet people treat them as monochrome.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#335600: Oct 26th 2020 at 11:03:17 PM

To all of the above - that's actually why I brought it up. The idea of letting the US break up on ideological lines is a wishful fantasy under any circumstances, but the article interested me because it's the only time I've ever seen anyone talking favorably about the idea actually acknowledge that it wouldn't work on geographic lines alone, because there's numerous people adhering to the minority party in even the most consistent "red" or "blue" states. (I mean, like I've said, I live in Texas).

I do think, though, that there's a difference between plurality of thought allowing for some heinous views and two-fifths of the population of a democracy being opposed to democracy. It's at the backseat of my concerns for now, but long-term I really don't see how a nation like that is supposed to function.


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