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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Let's not forget this friend already voted for Trump. So it's a little late to "persuade" them. They clearly made up their mind a long time ago. If there was ever a window of opportunity to keep them from falling for bullshit on Youtube, that time has passed.
Edited by M84 on Oct 26th 2020 at 10:46:07 PM
Disgusted, but not surprisedThe other thing is that while I am very aware that lots of Trump supporters, maybe a majority are personally nice/ "good" people (I don't think the U.S. would still be here if they weren't), there are a lot of things that are correlated with supporting Trump and/or being on the alt-right that are a mark of being a bad person (tl; dr, a lack of empathy towards lots of groups/people).
And from the perspective, I'm not sure why you would continue to be friends with someone who is not a good person.
I pray our attempts to be helpful prove fruitful. I certainly can relate to wanting to bring friends and family back from the cesspit of right wing media. Nothing made me happier than when my Trump voting Grandpa told me he was going to vote for the Democrat after three years of trying to convince him to do so.
And yet you write them off as a totally lost cause.
This reeks of rather black and white thinking. Conservatives are not all irredeemable monsters. I certainly would not think so of conservatives in my country, even though I may not agree with their politics, so why should I do the same for American conservatives?
Edited by Redmess on Oct 26th 2020 at 3:59:40 PM
Hope shines brightest in the darkest timesI think that's the question that's been on a lot of people's minds since this whole thing started. What makes a person "good"? Can you really say someone who who passively or even actively supports inhumane and destructive policies is "good"? Obviously to some extent we're all complicit in one way or another since there's no ethnical consumption under capitalism etc etc but IMO this type of thing is on an entirely different level. But at the same time it's hard to reconcile the idea that around half the country, including people you might otherwise like and respect, are complicit in this kind of awful thing. It's a pretty sobering thing to swallow from a psychological level.
I know personally that I can't really see eye to eye with someone who voted for Bolsonaro, for example. At best they were just naive, but that's not really much of a consolation to me since the end result is the same as malice.
I don't think anybody said that, and I wish you the best of luck with your friend's situation, but at the same time you can't really expect everyone to think using your time to invest in this person is a good idea. We don't really know anything about them other than what you posted and it doesn't paint a pretty picture.
Edited by Draghinazzo on Oct 26th 2020 at 12:07:54 PM
As far as "deprogramming" Trump supporters goes, I'm a terrible choice to provide anything constructive, because 1) I hate them too much to even be civil and 2) I'm completely asocial anyway. So I agree in a specific situation like Redmess's it's best to just cut ties. But I do have to say I'm uncomfortable ruling it out entirely in general, because then we just come back to the scenario I mentioned the other day, where the only way to address the fact that about 40 percent of the US population is actively in favor of authoritarianism is waiting for them to die out over time - which is the absolute worst solution if anything else exists.
It wouldn't be a "newly invented constitutional theory", it'd be what's he been doing all along - yelling about voter fraud. The assumption that he would actually need to prove it beyond the mere accusation to Republican judges is where I'm concerned that Democrats are in denial, and why I'd like to know more about what their actual strategies are. As I said, the effect of public pressure on the judiciary first requires that Democrats actually have power.
I don't think deprogramming should be ruled out, but you have to exercise good judgment on whether the time and emotional investment will be worth it. Some people will come around, others will not. And at some point, you might have to accept they will not and you might have wasted your time. I might give a legitimate shot if it was a friend or family member I knew and liked before and respected, but I also can't fault people for just not wanting to bother. I certainly don't have the emotional energy these days to engage with most people IRL about politics.
I feel we have to stay at least somewhat optimistic about conservatives, because they form a large part of the populace, and they are never going to just die out. Remember the old saying that today's liberals are tomorrow's conservatives. They are not just not going away; someday, many of us will be considered conservatives.
On top of that, unilaterally writing off a demographic based on what party they vote for comes dangerously close to abolishing that party altogether, to authoritarianism, and the persecutions of people who think differently that inevitably follow. Remember that left wing politics have led to authoritarian regimes in history as well. Black and white thinking never leads to good, regardless of which party does so.
Hope shines brightest in the darkest timesIt would be black and white thinking if we didn't acknowledge the full personhood of those people, accepting that there are various reasons that they eventually came to make those decisions and have those views, and that they can have other dimensions besides "right-winger". People are complex. Personally I am aware of all those things. It doesn't really mean I want to use my time trying to talk to most of them about their views these days or pretending that they aren't supporting a morally heinous party when they clearly are.
Also this.
Edited by Draghinazzo on Oct 26th 2020 at 12:11:14 PM
I mean, it also just depends on your own capability. Trying to talk to someone about these things from my perspective requires a certain amount of interpersonal and communication skills not everyone has. You can work on those, sure, but it's something that comes more easily to some and not as easily to others.
My social skills are kind of crap, so I know I'd have little to no chance. Generally though, I know that just presenting facts doesn't work. Instead, I prefer to try asking why someone wants to believe something. For example, if I end up meeting with someone who believes the moon landing was a hoax or something, I wouldn't list all the evidence proving it's real. I'd try asking them why do they need the moon landing to be fake.
Edited by M84 on Oct 26th 2020 at 11:18:03 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised@Redmess-
So I got to be honest. I'm not sure whether I'm "retracting" that post, but I kind of got my signals crossed.
I'm kind of confused if I was like editing my post in between there beign more comments, because I was reading your accusation about wanting to ban political parties as a reply to my post about pro-Trump positions correlating with being a bad person and someone I didn't see the several other posts in between.
I still think your accusation is kind of a straw man, but it makes way more sense to me now that I see the intervening posts and I'm not reading it as a response to my earlier post.
So apologies for the misunderstanding.
Edited by Hodor2 on Oct 26th 2020 at 10:21:13 AM
I can understand why a lot of people, especially those lacking interpersonal skills, would not want to make the effort to reach out to Trump supporters, but I really don't think trying to discourage Redmess from trying is helpful. If someone wants to help their friend, who are we to stop them? Why would we want to? Even from a purely nonpersonal point of view, his success means one less person possibly going down the alt-right void. How is that a bad thing?
I am still not happy about you strawmanning my friend as "some rando with a pepe avatar", implying that they are a Nazi, and then implying I'm being redpilled. That is some grade A character assassination there.
Edited by Redmess on Oct 26th 2020 at 4:20:39 PM
Hope shines brightest in the darkest times

@ Nrjxll -
To add to your first part, I have a lot of worries myself (which is why I've been reacting badly to doomsaying), but at least off-hand, I don't really see there being a court case where Trump brings up some newly invented constitutional theory that certain votes shouldn't count, and the Supreme Court rules in his favor. Because in a lot of ways elections are a state-by-state thing (again absent federal law).
I'm not trying to downplay how bad things like tonight's Wisconsin decision are, but like if the theory is something about Trump nullifying votes across the board, then the prediction might as well be that Trump is going to declare himself President for Life.
As far as Redmess's (internet?) friend(s) go, I'm kind of skeptical myself of the benefit of maintaining ties with someone who was neither a family member or close personal friend who had atrocious political views.
And I think attempting persuasion is dicey, because if (general) you are coming at the situation from the perspective that this is a reasonable person who is open to persuasion, then (general) you are also implicitly open to the possibility that they could persuade you that their views are the correct ones.
Edited by Hodor2 on Oct 26th 2020 at 9:43:27 AM