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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#335476: Oct 26th 2020 at 3:44:22 PM

Weirdly, I've been thanked by a number of people who have gotten their relatives out of Qanon with the NBC write-up about the organization being founded by con men. Not because of the racism, idiocy of the beliefs or more, but because the idea that someone is PROFITING off this is able to shake them out of it.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/how-three-conspiracy-theorists-took-q-sparked-qanon-n900531

I don't know what that means but I'm glad its worked with some people.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#335477: Oct 26th 2020 at 3:44:58 PM

Typically, I find it more useful to find some common ground between myself and the other person, and work from there. Facts are only useful when two people agree on some values.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#335478: Oct 26th 2020 at 3:45:12 PM

Yeah, and I think I'll try talking about more general, less polarizing things first, because clearly Trump is off-limits for now.

[up] Agreed.

And yes, I think the social media information deluge, including youtube, is a huge part of the problem. And this person is honestly trying hard to be critical, to fact check and check sources, but clearly that still is not enough. Because, well, if the fact checkers are biased, or the sources are untrustworthy, what then?

Like, this person really thinks all allegations against Trump are not only untrue, but have been proven untrue.

Edited by Redmess on Oct 26th 2020 at 11:49:25 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#335479: Oct 26th 2020 at 3:46:21 PM

Trump supporters must be feeling especially vulnerable right now.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#335480: Oct 26th 2020 at 3:47:06 PM

As I said, you don’t get people out of such views by telling them that they’re wrong, you do it by helping them build the skills needed to themselves identify that they’ve been wrong.

Edited by Silasw on Oct 26th 2020 at 10:47:23 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#335481: Oct 26th 2020 at 3:49:49 PM

I disagree.

I feel a better argument is actually putting their argument in empathic terms. I was a vicious homophobe until I met gay people (and had a spiritual revelation). Thank God I did and I realized what a monstrous pile of shit I was being.

I was still a teenager, though, but old enough that I should have known it was evil.

Show people the faces, names, and stories of the people being hurt.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 26th 2020 at 3:50:07 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
SapphireBlue Since: Jan, 2001
#335482: Oct 26th 2020 at 3:51:39 PM

[up]x6 They didn’t dismiss it for being NBC?

Speaking of which, is there anything else in-depth like that from other sources? It wouldn’t hurt to have stuff like that on hand just in case. I have a few relatives who might be buying into this, but I don’t know for sure if they are.

Edited by SapphireBlue on Oct 26th 2020 at 3:53:52 AM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#335483: Oct 26th 2020 at 3:51:53 PM

Here's an article about fighting disinformation. There's a whole section about what to do when someone you know is sharing it.

The number one rule is to be civil. If you see someone sharing something false, try and acknowledge where they're coming from. Post a link that shows evidence for why the information isn’t true. Experts recommend linking to a fact-checking site or a more neutral, non-partisan source, rather than your favorite blog or website. Fact-checking sites such as Snopes show you the origin of a hoax—linking to a site like this can help someone understand on their own how the information was manipulated. (And while you might not want to get into a tiff with your friends or family, research has shown that, at least on Twitter, users are actually more likely to accept corrections from people they know than from strangers.)

If you can, try and foster a dialogue with the person. You can acknowledge that it’s easy to fall for misinformation, recommends Peter Adams, head of the education team at the News Literacy Project, a nonprofit that helps students develop digital media literacy. "We're all hardwired to trust our senses and respond to our emotions, and it can be challenging to fight those impulses," says Adams. "Sharing something false doesn't make someone foolish or stupid, it just means they got tricked."

Oftentimes people share something because they identify with it or because they want it to be true, says Wardle, so just telling someone they're wrong can cause them to even further double down on their beliefs. Ask them why they believe a certain piece of information, or how they came to their conclusions. A meta-analysis of debunking studies found that the more you can help someone create their own counterarguments, the more likely they are to accept a correction or change their minds.

Finally, it's also important not to just correct false information, but to replace false narratives with correct ones. "One of the reasons conspiracy theories are so powerful is because [they] are powerful narratives - and our brains love strong and emotional narratives." says Wardle. These narratives can be so strongly imprinted in our minds that just hearing something is wrong or reading a list of facts doesn’t do enough to stop us from believing it. "When you tell your brain something isn’t true, it's kind of left with a hole—and it doesn’t know how to fill it," says Wardle. Instead, you need to provide a counter-message or a new narrative. Rather than say, "Obama isn’t Muslim," for instance, it’s better to say, "Obama is Christian."

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#335484: Oct 26th 2020 at 3:52:07 PM

[up][up][up]Of course, that has the possibility of causing them to double down if they aren't in the right headspace.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Oct 26th 2020 at 6:52:23 AM

My musician page
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#335485: Oct 26th 2020 at 3:53:09 PM

I think this is something where intelligence can actually work against people thanks to the deluge of misinformation. Once you think you've identified trustworthy sources, it is difficult to recognize their biases, especially if those sources reinforce the idea that they are, in fact, unbiased.

And I'm an academic. I know how easy it is for people, even university students, to just take what's put in front of them at face value. It is rather disturbing how easily a Ph D gets you on people's sources list...

Edited by Redmess on Oct 26th 2020 at 11:53:53 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#335486: Oct 26th 2020 at 3:54:51 PM

And yes, they voted for Trump, not because of believing in his actual policies, but because they think the public is being misled about what Trump actually does or says. When I brought up several of the things he does, I got the standard justifications you'd expect from Republicans: kids in cages wasn't his fault, he actually denounced white supremacists, etc.

It is actually true that Trump denounced white supremacists after Charlottesville.

In response to the criticism about his reaction to Charlottesville, Trump gave two speeches — heavily scripted, and he didn't deviate from the scripts, so he denounced white supremacists in very clear terms.

As is always the case with Trump making scripted speeches that are made in response to pressure and which contradict his nature, it only takes a few hours or a few days for him to revert back to his normal behaviour. However, it does allow Trump supporters to correctly claim he denounced white supremacists, even though it doesn't change the fact he has supported and enabled them both before and since those speeches.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Oct 26th 2020 at 10:57:37 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#335487: Oct 26th 2020 at 3:55:57 PM

BREAKING NEWS: Renea Turner, a 2018 Write-in Trumpeteer Candidate that ran against Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine (R), has unlawfully declared herself the true Governor of Ohio and has been in discussions with people to abduct and imprison/kill him. She is currently not under arrest.

The Trumpeteer cult is now going after their own. I hope she's arrested immediately, and I hope DeWine remains safe.

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#335488: Oct 26th 2020 at 3:57:01 PM

[up]Somehow, this feels even more bizarre than the usual to me.

My musician page
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#335489: Oct 26th 2020 at 3:57:08 PM

I feel a better argument is actually putting their argument in empathic terms. I was a vicious homophobe until I met gay people (and had a spiritual revelation). Thank God I did and I realized what a monstrous pile of shit I was being.

That’s the thing though, that was your revelation. From what you’ve said wasn’t someone telling you “homophobia is wrong” it was you being taught the skills (in this case empathy for people around you and the ability to recognise their suffering) needed for you to realise that homophobia is wrong.

I guess we could try and pair all the media haters in the US up with journalists, so they can see that the press aren’t what they think, but it seems rather logistically difficult.

Edited by Silasw on Oct 26th 2020 at 10:59:14 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#335490: Oct 26th 2020 at 3:59:49 PM

The bizarreness of it, and the fact that it seems to never have progressed beyond this woman yacking, is probably why she isn't being arrested. At this point I feel like we should have a Kidnap Governor Bingo sheet.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#335491: Oct 26th 2020 at 4:02:55 PM

I assume the police have some way of telling when someone is all talk and no action.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#335492: Oct 26th 2020 at 4:04:27 PM

[up]x4 Mike De Wine is nominally a Trump supporter himself and is very Republican by most reasonable metrics.

But because he has handled the pandemic with the maturity and seriousness the situation demands he has become hated by Trump's hard-core supporters even as his overall approval rating has skyrocketed.

Edited by Falrinn on Oct 26th 2020 at 4:05:00 AM

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#335493: Oct 26th 2020 at 4:06:53 PM

While that Mother Jones article contains some sound advice, I once generated what I think is the closest once can come to a successful strategy. It was intended for online trolls, but it works in many situations.

  1. Remind yourself that you are not trying to win the argument. You are trying to promote understanding, if not with the troll, then at least with any audience who might come to hear about your discussion. Strive to be a role model.
  2. Seek to understand before being understood. Although you may suspect that you are dealing with a troll, that doesn’t mean that they aren’t trying to communicate ideas that are important to them, and potentially important to the issue, however ineffectively.
  3. Seek to be understood before you attempt to persuade. Even if the other person is expressing opinions that you find personally offensive, it is unlikely that you can change their mind before finding some common ground, if that is at all possible.
  4. Ignore everything the other person says except statements of fact or logical arguments. Then a) Summarize areas of agreement, if any. Ask if your summary is basically correct; then b) Summarize areas of disagreement in non-judgmental, objective terms. Make it seem as if these are reasonable areas of disagreement between two people. All judgmental language on their part should be ignored, even if directed toward yourself, because attacking someone’s subjective feelings, however irrational, will only lead to the other person feeling defensive, and sabotage the discussion.
  5. Using positive language, state your own beliefs. Use “I” statement to make clear what you find offensive and why. Ask if they understand what you are saying. Do not allow them to elaborate.
  6. Suggest a resolution that addresses both of your concerns. Ask if they can agree. Work out any areas of disagreement as above. Express a desire to continue working with this person in the future.
  7. If necessary at any time, don’t hesitate to state any rules you have about engaging in conversation (i.e., “I prefer not to engage in conversations with derogatory language…”). Ask if they are willing to continue with those rules in place. If not, politely terminate the conversation, but do so in a way that would leave open the possibility of re-engaging at a future time.
  8. If they do not attempt to engage you in good faith, or if they indicate an unwillingness to adhere to your rules, politely terminate the conversation.
  9. Never lose your dignity. It’s the one thing no one can take from you.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#335494: Oct 26th 2020 at 4:09:30 PM

Another good anti-Trump point is his charity.

"Trump stole from a children's cancer charity and veterans' charity. He admitted this and paid all the fines for it."

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#335495: Oct 26th 2020 at 4:11:22 PM

[up][up]8 has been all too common with the people I've had to decide whether or not to engage with.

My musician page
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#335496: Oct 26th 2020 at 4:28:55 PM

[up][up] I'm willing to bet the likes of Clownfish TV have an answer for that one too.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#335497: Oct 26th 2020 at 4:32:23 PM

This is a fact check video I got sent. And when you watch it, yeah, that seems pretty convincing overall.

I guess it shows just how easy it is to make a fact check by selecting the right material. And when you trust the source, well, why would you disbelieve it?

Edited by Redmess on Oct 26th 2020 at 12:34:14 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
PresidentStalkeyes Eats moldy bread and flies into windows from United Kingdom of England-land Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Eats moldy bread and flies into windows
#335498: Oct 26th 2020 at 4:43:48 PM

Just to add to this, based on my personal experience with my former housemate, one thing that can be frustrating if you're engaging in a real-world conversation about these topics is that it's very easy to be tripped up. I think we take for granted the ease of looking up sources while online and having time to properly consider one's response; when 'debating' in the heat of the moment, it's much easier to get caught out by some remark you were not expecting or don't know much about. This is natural, obviously, since most people aren't trained in rhetoric and don't have all the answers to everything readily available; but how do you deal with that? It's even worse for me as a socially-awkward autistic person who very easily stumbles over their words, even in normal conversation. Often times I know something is off but I can't explain why in a concise and coherent manner, and that's if I have all of the facts ready to be recalled at a moment's notice.

Edited by PresidentStalkeyes on Oct 26th 2020 at 11:44:26 AM

Those sell-by-dates won't stop me because I can't read!
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#335499: Oct 26th 2020 at 4:45:13 PM

[up] I have exactly the same problem.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#335500: Oct 26th 2020 at 4:54:09 PM

If people don't want to be persuaded, they won't be.

Seriously, you try persuading someone of something as simple and easily proven as "smaller screen can be more detailed".


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