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RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#33476: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:01:54 PM

As long as the employer does not know who their employees vote for, they cannot be threatening their employees with punishment for voting a particular way.
What if you employ over 30% of all the adults who can vote in a district or two?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#33477: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:03:57 PM

@Grizzly: I also know that Georgia Pacific (owned by the Koch brothers) has a history of refusing promotions to people they deem as "too political", and can fire you for running for public office without company approval.

With this stuff in mind, I don't think it's outrageous to worry that this is a form of voter intimidation.

If they didn't have a history of this stuff, I'd agree more with you.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
#33478: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:05:17 PM

As far as I have seen, no one is threatened with assault or vandalism for not giving money to the Corleones. They are being warned that, in the Family's assessment, a failure to raise sufficient funds for protection efforts will put all the residents of the neighbourhood at risk, related by blood or not, because the Family believes thugs† will come in and start roughing things up.

The obvious difference being that, in the event of an actual economic downturn, employers would be expected to lay off employees and that would be a perfectly acceptable thing for them to do. The only reason it seems equivalent to you is that A) you are sure the economy will not decline B) you are sure that contrary to their statements these employers must surely agree with your obviously correct economic predictions, and C) you therefore have no way of resolving the situation besides imagining the employers as part of some big evil conspiracy to control the "common people".

Does it not seem more reasonable that perhaps your understanding of the facts is not the only one in existence and the employers honestly believe that an Obama win will hurt the economy?

That's an arbitrarily high burden of proof.

Burdens of proof should be high, especially in matters of free speech.

edited 18th Oct '12 12:06:55 PM by EdwardsGrizzly

<><
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#33479: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:05:52 PM

@Radical Taoist: Whether the employer knows how its employees vote or not is irrelevant. The fact is that it's establishing a causal link between "Candidate X gets elected", and "you lose your job". Courts recognize extortion even if the action demanded of the victim is implied rather than explicitly stated.

@Edwards Grizzly: Funny, then, how there weren't lots of emails going around to workers in 2004 urging them not to vote for Bush lest his policies send the economy into a major downturn. Which they did, I might remind you.

Does it not seem more reasonable that perhaps your understanding of the facts is not the only one in existence and the employers honestly believe that an Obama win will hurt the economy?

For the last time, this is irrelevant. Employers have no business turning their subjective opinion about generalized economic outcomes into threats to their employees.

edited 18th Oct '12 12:09:33 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#33480: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:06:38 PM

"You know, that Obama guy. If he gets into office, terrible things might happen. You know, economic collapse. Famine. Dying kids. A thousand years of darkness. And yeah, we'll have to have some layoffs. Sucks, but what can you do?"

(Imagine this said in a stereotypical Italian accent.)

'My father made them an offer they couldn't refuse. Mitt Romney held a rally in their plant, and my father assured his employees that either their families or their current President would be out on the street this December.'

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#33481: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:06:48 PM

Yeah, the balance of power is key here.

An employer can fire an employee much more easily than an employee can find a job elsewhere.

If these were equivalently easy (or difficult) processes, then you'd probably see less of this sort of electoral bullying.

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#33482: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:07:30 PM

@Grizzly: See, that would be more understandable if Siegel hadn't said in the letter that his company had done fantastically well under the Obama the first time around.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#33483: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:08:53 PM

Fighteer: No one here is saying "If you vote for X I fire you". But Grizzly is questioning "If X is elected (your vote preference not mentioned here), then our company might be in worse shape." The employee is the one that made the connection to being fired. Does that still count?

I'm still waiting for a response to this. Do you think that this still counts as coercion, even though the direct threat is replaced with a remark that requires the listener to connect the dots? If not, your reasoning is inconsistent.

edited 18th Oct '12 12:13:49 PM by Trivialis

GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#33484: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:09:32 PM

I'm not saying that there's no cost to firing one's employee. There is a cost, of course, but it's much lower than for one to find a new job. Not to mention that, without that employee, you're probably gonna be okay unless that employee happened to occupy a key role in the company, and there are few such roles. But without your job, you have an immediate and huge problem on your hands, about how to pay your bills and feed yourself and even survive.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#33485: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:10:31 PM

They're not even saying they're going to fire people if there's an economic downturn, Grizzly. They're saying they're going to fire people simply because of an Obama win. Nothing has to actually happen except Obama winning the election; they're not even going to wait to see what happens afterwards and make adjustments to a changing situation. Which is coercive, manipulative, bullying, and a basically shit thing to do. You can believe Obama's bad for the economy all you want, but outright telling your employees they will be fired if he wins, in a letter that is basically threatening and telling them to vote for Romney, should be illegal if it already isn't. (And I'm pretty sure it is.)

It's not just about the words, it's about the tone and general context. You really are bending over backwards to excuse contemptable behavior. Behavior that could, in the end, be directly harmful to you.

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#33486: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:15:15 PM

The only reason it seems equivalent to you is that A) you are sure the economy will not decline B) you are sure that contrary to their statements these employers must surely agree with your obviously correct economic predictions, and C) you therefore have no way of resolving the situation besides imagining the employers as part of some big evil conspiracy to control the "common people".
Wrong on three assumptions. I suspect that it will decline (though not as much in the long run as it would under a Romney presidency), and I suspect these guys are just opportunistic bullies. You don't need a conspiracy to put a lot of opportunistic bullies in business leadership positions; it's a psychographic that can do very well in business.

The reason these coercive messages and Mafiosi threats seem equivalent to me is because they are effectively the same thing.

Does it not seem more reasonable that perhaps your understanding of the facts is not the only one in existence and the employers honestly believe that an Obama win will hurt the economy?
If that's the case, they can spend more money and more time donating to and volunteering for the Romney campaign. Leave your employees out of it. You are an employer; you hold a disproportionate amount of power; don't abuse it. If the economy drops after Obama is reelected, then you lay people off.

edited 18th Oct '12 12:17:44 PM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#33487: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:16:28 PM

@Trivialis: Yes, "If X is elected (your vote preference not mentioned here), then our company might be in worse shape" is coercive. It draws a direct line between the vote of the employee and the outcome to his company. Companies have no business telling their employees this.

As noted, the employer is the one with the power. When you have the power in a relationship, it is your ethical duty not to use that power for coercion. This isn't a free speech issue. Employers have vastly restricted speech rights when it comes to their employees.

edited 18th Oct '12 12:18:16 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
#33488: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:18:07 PM

@Ace of Spades: That's actually completely false, according to the TP articles you linked to. I quote:

If any new taxes are levied on me, or my company, as our current President plans, I will have no choice but to reduce the size of this company.

If we fail as a nation to make the right choice on November 6th, and we lose our independence as a company

Both letters quite explicitly tie the possible layoffs to concrete harmful effects they believe Obama will inflict on their companies.

<><
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#33489: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:18:44 PM

You're not answering me. What about my reconstruction of the flip case you posted, employees saying "If Obama isn't elected then corporate workers will have less benefits" (and less incentive to work in corps)?

You said the flip case by the employees is just as bad; however, you formulated it as a direct threat and not as a possibly implied comment, which I provided. By your reasoning, what I stated also has to count as coercion.

edited 18th Oct '12 12:20:17 PM by Trivialis

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#33490: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:18:58 PM

@Grizzly: And those statements are blatantly false. So much so, in fact, that they would be suspect even if they weren't coercive.

@Trivialis: If a single employee or a group of employees takes a collective action in protest of their employer's stance on some political issue, that is absolutely within their right.

edited 18th Oct '12 12:22:15 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
#33491: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:20:53 PM

If that is true, then these people are no different from any other alleged political misinformer. Which is bad, but they still aren't being coercive.

<><
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#33492: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:22:46 PM

Since when does the truth or falsehood of a threat have anything to do with its coercive power?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#33495: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:26:37 PM

@Fighteer

You earlier said that an employer politically threatening a boss is coercion:

How about we postulate the reverse? I as an employee walk into my boss's office and demand that he vote Democrat or else I will use my knowledge of the company's workings to sabotage operations. Or let's say I'm an employee with essential knowledge whose absence will (at least temporarily) impact the company's operations, and I say, "vote Democrat or I quit". Or let's say I use my ability to send company-wide emails to directly advocate a candidate.

And in the same post, bosses should play by the same ethical rules as the employees:

Are these ethical? Proper? I can be fired for any of them — why can a business owner do the same thing?

But if you're saying that a general "if X is elected, this is bad" (without explicit "I quit" threat in it) is not coercion, then you mean that a direct threat and a remark that's open to interpretation are different, which is what Grizzly is saying.

But back here you're saying that they're the same. That's not consistent. Does a mere opinion, that the listener can possibly interpret as a coercion, count as one?

edited 18th Oct '12 12:28:39 PM by Trivialis

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#33496: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:28:23 PM

Employers have more power than individual employees, ergo they have more restrictions on what's reasonable conduct.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#33497: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:28:52 PM

[up][up]Oh, right, that. Threatening direct harm to your employer's business (like sabotaging their computer systems) would be blackmail and prosecutable as such. Going on strike, however, is a generally recognized action that is protected as an expression of free speech. Again, though, it's a case of balancing an inherently uneven power structure.

edited 18th Oct '12 12:30:25 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#33498: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:35:21 PM

Moving on from this unproductive topic, Krugman dissects Romneyomics. He draws the conclusion that Romney is counting, quite literally, on the Confidence Fairy. His economic plans offer no specifics and his "12 million jobs" claim is in line with what the economy would naturally be doing at full employment anyway. Thus, what he's offering is quite literally that his presence would be so purely awesome that it would inspire an economic boom all by itself.

So there you have it. The true plan is to provide an economic stimulus in the form of Romney’s awesome awesomeness; the cover story is the pretense of having an actual program.

edited 18th Oct '12 12:35:48 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#33499: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:37:04 PM

Blackmailing is a threat that applies to people in general, whereas coercion is part of business ethics that relieves political pressure.

By your reasoning, I don't see why it's acceptable for employers to just send mail across, saying "If you don't vote for Obama then it's bad for the business workers", and thus pressuring the business owners. Who employers vote for should be left to themselves and not forced upon by other workers.

So again, are threats and opinions same or not?

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#33500: Oct 18th 2012 at 12:37:36 PM

Of course, the markets responded positively when Obama was doing well, so the theory that "markets will be happy with a Republican president" appears to be off.


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