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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#334951: Oct 23rd 2020 at 9:55:18 AM

I think Biden reacted in a far better manner than what's being suggested here, deflecting to Trump's use of cages wouldn't have been a good idea. Hypocrisy just helps the worst candidate, it's better to acknowledge your guilt and promise to do better.

I agree with this. Biden going "Well YOU USED the cages!" would be less an admittance of past wrongs and more moral posturing. Focusing on his policies, his past mistakes, the acknowledgements of them and the paths to take to fix them is better.

That said I am of the mind his policies are still way insufficient but I am a filthy commie. Or something.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#334952: Oct 23rd 2020 at 9:55:20 AM

It would be nice for Biden to acknowledge that Obama had some bad policies and he will do better, though.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
#334953: Oct 23rd 2020 at 10:00:28 AM

[up] That would be a bad move, tactically. In political debates, you don't want to admit that your side sucks even a little. That proves your opponent right, but does not prove you right in claiming that you'll do better now.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#334954: Oct 23rd 2020 at 10:04:16 AM

It would be nice for Biden to acknowledge that Obama had some bad policies and he will do better, though.

He did, though

Donald Trump: (35:00) They have gotten such good… But just ask one question. Who built the cages? I’d love you to ask him that. Who built the cages, Joe?

Kristen Welker: (35:05) Let me ask about your immigration policy, Mr. Vice President. The Obama Administration did fail to deliver immigration reform, which had been a key promise during the administration. It also presided over record deportations, as well as, family detentions at the border before changing course. So why should voters trust you with an immigration overhaul now?

Joe Biden: (35:23) Because we made a mistake made. It took too long to get it right. Took too long to get it right. I’ll be President of the United States, not Vice President of the United States. And the fact is I’ve made it very clear. Within a 100 days, I’m going to send to the United States Congress a pathway to citizenship for over 11 million undocumented people. And all of those so-called dreamers, those DACA kids, they’re going to be immediately certified again to be able to stay in this country and put on a path to citizenship. The idea that they are being sent home by this guy and they want to do that is they’ve gone to they’ve never seen before. I can imagine. You’re five years old. Your parents are taking across the Rio Grande River and it’s illegal. And you say, “Oh, no, Mom. Leave me here. I’m not going to go with you.” They been here. Many of them are model citizens. Over 20,000 of them are first responders out there taking care of people during this crisis. We owe them. We owe them.

That is a transcript of the second debate, which I linked in its entirety in the previous link.

That would be a bad move, tactically. In political debates, you don't want to admit that your side sucks even a little. That proves your opponent right, but does not prove you right in claiming that you'll do better now.

Nah. In political debates, presenting your argument is what is the rational thing that helps you win the debate.

In pee pee poo poo shitflinging ass-monkey Karenland showbiz and chan boards, the loudest chimp beats their chest all the way to victory.

Whether elections are a rational political process or a popularity contest is another thing (P.S: It's a popularity contest). But technically, if you go to a debate with the mentality "I am here to ridicule someone else" congratulations you've a Trump mentality and quick reminder - that gets you lots of leeway, votes from similar-minded monkeys, literal nazis and greedy opportunists but not the majority of popular support.

Edited by Aszur on Oct 23rd 2020 at 11:58:10 AM

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#334955: Oct 23rd 2020 at 10:15:03 AM

That said I am of the mind his policies are still way insufficient but I am a filthy commie. Or something.

I'm not a moderate so I can certainly understand your position but I have to disagree, opening a path to citizenship for 11 million people is pretty massive.

[up]Well said.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 23rd 2020 at 10:16:05 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#334956: Oct 23rd 2020 at 10:17:15 AM

The "who built the cages" thing is just Trump following the standard spin pattern for anything his administration does. 1) Cause a problem. 2) Blame the problem on someone else. 3) Stop causing the problem. 4) Take credit for having fixed the problem.

In the immigration case specifically, there was a policy under the Obama administration to separate children from their parents if the parents were arrested during a border crossing. The thing is that under the Obama administration, parents would only be arrested for an existing criminal record. Trump changed the policy so that everyone crossing the border would be arrested, even if they were doing so to seek asylum (which is legal — it's only an illegal border crossing if you're trying to evade immigration authorities, not if you're presenting an asylum claim), which forced all children to be separated from their families.

So the "Obama built the cages" thing is an attempt to blame Obama for a problem Trump caused. Yes, Obama did build temporary holding facilities for child immigrants (this was during a spike in immigration of unaccompanied minors caused by an epidemic of violence in Central American countries). But the problem with what Trump did was never that he build facilities to hold immigrants while they were being processed, the problems were:

  • 1) Trump required that all adult immigrants be arrested, even if they hadn't committed a crime.
  • 2) This required all children be separated from their families, as the adults were sent to prisons, which didn't have facilities to house families together.
  • 3) Trump required that all immigrants be kept in detainment until their cases made it through the immigration court system, which means they were detained for much longer. Previously, after a court date was set, immigrants who were otherwise in the clear (ie, no criminal record, etc) were allowed into the US to await their hearing. This is the system that Trump refers to as "catch and release" and insists that no one ever showed back up to their court date (which is false, the overwhelming majority, something like 90-95%, do show up to their hearings).
  • 4) This meant that there was suddenly massively more detainees in the system, and the existing infrastructure could not handle it. This was an entirely foreseeable problem, but Trump did nothing to mitigate it beforehand.
  • 5) As a result, immigrants (many of which, again, had not even committed a crime by crossing the border to seek asylum) were kept in absolutely appalling conditions — overcrowding, insufficient facilities, lack of necessary medical care, etc. This part in particular is what people tend to mean by "keeping people in cages".
  • 6) And as a final fuck you, the Trump administration did a piss poor job with the bureaucratic side of things, which is why there are now more than 500 children whose families are unknown because the paperwork wasn't done properly. Because the whole effort was half-assed from the start, there are 500 kids who will likely never see their parents again.

The whole "who built the cages?" thing was Trump trying to get a sound bite of Joe Biden saying "yes, we did build those, but [explanation for why it was different from what Trump did]" so he and Fox News could cut off the explanation and just air "yes, we did build those" on repeat for the next two weeks.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#334957: Oct 23rd 2020 at 10:23:20 AM

The whole "who built the cages?" thing was Trump trying to get a sound bite of Joe Biden saying "yes, we did build those, but [explanation for why it was different from what Trump did]" so he and Fox News could cut off the explanation and just air "yes, we did build those" on repeat for the next two weeks.

Yes, but who cares what they do?

By clearly accepting a certain level of responsibility Biden is appealing to voters who care about it, such as Hispanic/Latino people and others who support non-punitive immigration reform. That's why he followed up with a policy promise that would appeal to such people.

He knows that bad faith right-wingers would abuse it, but they'd abuse anything he does.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SteveMB (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#334958: Oct 23rd 2020 at 10:25:09 AM

I suspect that the most significant effect of this debate is that Trump doubling down on his don't-worry-be-happy approach to the coronavirus may prove decisive in tipping Florida into the blue column. Oddly enough, senior citizens are generally not on board with becoming blood sacrifices to the gods of Wall Street....

MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
#334959: Oct 23rd 2020 at 10:27:36 AM

There is an actual comic book about blood sacrifices to the gods of Wall Street. The Black Monday Murders. It's pretty good. Check it out if you get a chance.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#334960: Oct 23rd 2020 at 10:38:19 AM

I'm not a moderate so I can certainly understand your position but I have to disagree, opening a path to citizenship for 11 million people is pretty massive.

I mean, at best, the citizenship bit is a bandaid to the issue. But TLDR, the issue of immigration is spurred because of wars, economical and military that U.S foreign policies enacts or permits for their own profit. Chief among these is the War on Drugs, but the fact the U.S enjoys not reining in their companies when they commit horrible abuses on foreign lands certainly spurs a lot of poverty and inequality that sinks those regions into wartorn fuckholes. Which is why the people from there immigrate in the first place.

And Biden makes no mention of doing any of this, closest being the legalization of marihuana. But the War on Drugs is still on, under him.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#334961: Oct 23rd 2020 at 10:49:45 AM

Yes, but who cares what they do?
Someone trying to win an election. Biden can't afford for the narrative to shift to "BIDEN ADMITS TO BEING JUST AS BAD AS TRUMP ON IMMIGRATION", which is how they'd try to spin it. No point in giving your enemy ammunition against you. Biden addressed Trump's overall point without responding directly to the specific question in a way that would give exploitable sound bites, which was honestly the perfect way to handle it.

By clearly accepting a certain level of responsibility Biden is appealing to voters who care about it, such as Hispanic/Latino people and others who support non-punitive immigration reform. That's why he followed up with a policy promise that would appeal to such people.
He did that. Someone quoted it upthread. He admitted that the Obama administration had some policy failures on immigration, by not moving quickly or aggressively enough to address the issue. He just sidestepped Trump's bad-faith framing of the issue in the process.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#334962: Oct 23rd 2020 at 10:50:32 AM

Yeah, some of those refugees are definitely being caused by US actions, and Biden needs to address those underlying causes as well.

[up] Yes, and that's good, sorry I missed that. And I think it is important for Biden to signal to his voters that he is willing to admit mistakes and improve.

Edited by Redmess on Oct 23rd 2020 at 7:51:55 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#334963: Oct 23rd 2020 at 10:55:50 AM

He did that. Someone quoted it upthread. He admitted that the Obama administration had some policy failures on immigration, by not moving quickly or aggressively enough to address the issue. He just sidestepped Trump's bad-faith framing of the issue in the process.

That's what I'm talking about. Why are you disagreeing?

There is absolutely no evidence that this will hurt him, obsessing over Fox news is highly counterproductive.

I mean, at best, the citizenship bit is a bandaid to the issue. But TLDR, the issue of immigration is spurred because of wars, economical and military that U.S foreign policies enacts or permits for their own profit. Chief among these is the War on Drugs, but the fact the U.S enjoys not reining in their companies when they commit horrible abuses on foreign lands certainly spurs a lot of poverty and inequality that sinks those regions into wartorn fuckholes. Which is why the people from there immigrate in the first place.

I'm talking about the wellbeing of the immigrants who exist in the country now, obviously, it's not going to revamp the entire global economic system. But there is in-fact room between that and "a bandaid".

Giving a mass number of people citizenship and making the immigration system more immune would do very real good.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 23rd 2020 at 10:57:07 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#334964: Oct 23rd 2020 at 11:00:51 AM

[up]Because "why should we care what they do?" in response to me praising Biden's sidestepping the rhetorical trap Trump was laying suggests that you think Biden should have stepped into the trap and fuck the idiots who buy into right-wing propaganda anyway.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#334965: Oct 23rd 2020 at 11:01:06 AM

Agreed, giving them citizenship should be first priority.

Speaking of citizenship, a commentator mentioned how strange the US system is with its voting registration. In the Netherlands, no one needs to register, because when you are a citizen, you get your ballot automatically, no questions asked. You don't even have to state a likely party affiliation, as you apparently have to in the US (or are encouraged to, at least), so no targeted advertising either.

And apparently something like DigiD, the Dutch identity management system, makes Americans' skin crawl.

Edited by Redmess on Oct 23rd 2020 at 8:30:24 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#334966: Oct 23rd 2020 at 11:02:13 AM

And apparently something like Didi D, the Dutch identity management system, makes Americans' skin crawl.

MARK OF THE BEEEEEEEEEAST

NATIONAL IDENTIFICATION IS THE MARK OF THE BEEEEEEEEEAST IT IS WRITTEN

THE BOOK OF REVELATIOOOOOOOONS

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#334967: Oct 23rd 2020 at 11:03:59 AM

The whole 'good' comment makes me seriously wonder what is going to happen to those 550 kids stuck with ICE...

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#334968: Oct 23rd 2020 at 11:06:46 AM

[up]He didn't say "good", he said "go ahead" (directed to the moderator). Trump is loathsome, but that particular thing just seems to be people hearing him wrong.

Also yes, any sort of standardized national ID system in America is immediately torpedoes by small-government conservatives and religious nutjobs immediately declaring that this is but the first step in rounding up everyone into internment camps and sacrificing their souls to Satan. We do have social security (where everyone living in the US is issued a social security number as a unique identifier) as a de facto national ID system, but it wasn't designed to be used that way (in fact, IIRC it was explicitly designed to make doing that harder, in order to placate the "mark of the beast" idiots) so it's just a shitty one.

Edited by NativeJovian on Oct 23rd 2020 at 2:11:57 PM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#334969: Oct 23rd 2020 at 11:07:04 AM

They were all sent to white foster families. Some of these families offered because they were scared and concerned for the children due to their faith/morality. Others are part of radical Prosperity Gospel evangelical cults.

Either way, it strongly reminds me of separating indigenous peoples from their children.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 23rd 2020 at 11:07:21 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#334970: Oct 23rd 2020 at 11:26:15 AM

~Aszur k I think you're trying too hard with the shit posting

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#334971: Oct 23rd 2020 at 11:29:55 AM

Nope, some of the most insane hard core fringe areas of U.S conservtism genuinely do think such normalized nationwide identifications are the mark of the devil.

It is a real fucking argument wielded

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#334972: Oct 23rd 2020 at 11:30:05 AM

[up][up]

He's also not wrong - the concept of RFID chips for easy medical reading, for example, has been controversial since the turn of the millenium solely because there are certain Christians out there who are firmly convinced that it's fulfilling part of the Book of Revelation.

Edited by ironballs16 on Oct 23rd 2020 at 2:32:04 PM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#334973: Oct 23rd 2020 at 11:33:54 AM

We don't need to be chipped, mind you. Carrying an ID card in your wallet is more than sufficient.

Not that we don't carry plenty of identifying material on our persons as it is. Including chips.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#334974: Oct 23rd 2020 at 11:34:42 AM

Extremists can find anything in the bible to support their arguments,so I'm hardly surprised

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#334975: Oct 23rd 2020 at 11:35:46 AM

Also your cellphone is tracking your every movement... and people carry those willingly.


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