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ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#33428: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:00:54 AM

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1012/82584.html?hp=f1

I'm very worried this group could easily decide the election. (True the Vote. They're an Anti-Voter Fraud group, but most of their activities for monitoring elections is looking to be scare tactics to intimidate people too brown or black into not voting.)

nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#33429: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:01:30 AM

[up][up]Yes, he's saying the two statements are different. I missed it the first time I read through it too and thought he said the two statements are similar.

edited 18th Oct '12 11:04:00 AM by nightwyrm_zero

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#33431: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:08:35 AM

One is like saying if one guy gets elected China will nuke us versus if one guy gets elected I will fly down to Florida and sock your grandmother. I do not have the power to convince China to nuke us, but I could conceivably punch out your granny.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#33432: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:12:35 AM

I don't know, my grandmother is one tough cookie.

But I digress.

#33433: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:12:50 AM

The difference being that you socking granny would just be your being a jerk, while an employer actually has a reason to cut staff if the political climate harms his business.

Fighteer obviously doesn't believe the political climate will hurt these businesses, but there is no reason to believe the people making these statements don't believe it other than a preconceived notion that companies are evil and thus that it is more likely for them to be maliciously sabotaging themselves for some secret political agenda than it is for them to genuinely have a different assessment of the outlook for their own business than their critics have.

<><
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#33434: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:12:59 AM

Politico won't load for me all of a sudden. It's running extremely slowly in Chrome.

[up] Grizzly, we can't have a discussion if you will just strawman my arguments into "dissing business owners who think differently than I do." What I am saying is that businesses have no right to coerce their employees into voting a particular way for any reason. Statements such as "If X happens (which you are voting on), I'll have to [hire/lay off] employees," are inherently coercive and are therefore unethical.

edited 18th Oct '12 11:15:13 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#33435: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:16:09 AM

[up]I thought you just said analytic presentation of research is ok, saying "this is our projected financial statistics".

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#33436: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:16:16 AM

Grizzly: The point is, you've created an arbitrary situation where people can justify "I believe this hurts my business" as an excuse to engage in political extortion. Using it as political extortion versus using it as a legitimately helpful reminder to one's employees are two events that are not distinguishable from one another.

It's Schrodinger's Management.

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#33437: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:16:31 AM

I'd agree that the corporations are toeing the line, and may even have crossed-though not legally crossed it, clearly. However, I personally don't like corporations. They're a necessary evil at best. However, I can't really in good faith think of a way to prosecute this without setting a dangerous legal precedent. With luck, it won't impact the election.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#33438: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:18:52 AM

I don't think "no, you can't bully your employees into voting the way you want just because you pretend you're telling them that it could affect their jobs" is a bad precedent.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#33439: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:19:41 AM

@Trivialis: My company releases financial statements and projections all the time. These do not take the form of general emails to all staff making a blanket assertion about the consequences of an election.

The only rational purpose of the latter statement, especially when it establishes a causal relationship between the election and the firing of workers, is coercion.

edited 18th Oct '12 11:27:12 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#33440: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:21:10 AM

It's like a teacher saying "If you go to this party the night before the final exam, I will fail you." Now it may very well be that going to the party might make you fail your exam coz you didn't studied but the teacher has no right to fail students based on whether they go to the party.

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#33441: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:21:19 AM

La Cosa Nostra would love to hear that there's no legal penalty for discussing how awful it would be if something happened to your business because you didn't donate to the Family, who could protect it.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#33442: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:25:56 AM

[up]Indeed. Not to mention unaffiliated, independent and entrepreneurial loan sharks. They'd love to know this.

#33443: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:26:01 AM

Using it as political extortion versus using it as a legitimately helpful reminder to one's employees are two events that are not distinguishable from one another.

Exactly, and the outrage is from people who have chosen to perceive it as the former due to their own preconceptions.

<><
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#33444: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:29:07 AM

Blaming people's preconceptions is a handy strawman, Grizzly, but can we please stop it? First, I think that above statement was incorrectly worded, but even if it wasn't, I do not agree that it establishes a presumption of innocence. Rather, it establishes that political advocacy among one's employees is improper no matter the intent.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#33445: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:29:21 AM

It's like a teacher saying "If you go to this party the night before the final exam, I will fail you." Now it may very well be that going to the party might make you fail your exam coz you didn't studied but the teacher has no right to fail students based on whether they go to the party.

That's not exactly the same. There's nothing in that party that affects to the teacher's grading. The business is trying to establish that connection, whether or not it's the case.

The dangerous precedent Dr Tentacles is talking about is that business-affiliated people would not be able to speak various things, for fear of being sued for coercion. So where do we draw the line?

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#33446: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:31:03 AM

I can only conclude that your biased emotional preconceptions are what lead you to disagree with Mafia extortionists then, Grizzly. Rational and fair-minded people must naturally accept that it's possible those guys aren't really threatening to break your storefront windows and kneecaps.

EDIT:

The dangerous precedent Dr Tentacles is talking about is that business-affiliated people would not be able to speak various things, for fear of being sued for coercion. So where do we draw the line?
Simple. Businesses release neutral progress reports ('economy goes up, we'll hire more, economy goes down, you may be at risk'). Business owners separate their professional positions from their political advocacy (see the difference between "I'm proud to be voting for Mitt Romney - he's the man we want in office!" and "you can vote for who you want, but just saying, if Obama gets reelected, a lot of people in your situation could be out of work"). It's not hard.

edited 18th Oct '12 11:34:19 AM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#33447: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:31:10 AM

[up][up] The form matters. Businessmen are free to discuss politics among themselves, to donate to campaigns (or PACs), to sponsor advertising, etc., all of which is done in their capacity as private individuals. Where they may not cross the line is to use their position of power as employers to induce their employees to vote a certain way.

How about we postulate the reverse? I as an employee walk into my boss's office and demand that he vote Democrat or else I will use my knowledge of the company's workings to sabotage operations. Or let's say I'm an employee with essential knowledge whose absence will (at least temporarily) impact the company's operations, and I say, "vote Democrat or I quit". Or let's say I use my ability to send company-wide emails to directly advocate a candidate.

Are these ethical? Proper? I can be fired for any of them — why can a business owner do the same thing?

edited 18th Oct '12 11:34:18 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ch00beh ??? from Who Knows Where Since: Jul, 2010
???
#33448: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:34:51 AM

a friendly reminder to corporation haters that that weird thing in front of you shining light that displays information while taking your input was made available to consumers like you because Intel decided to create a microprocessor, IBM thought a PC would be useful outside of government research, and Xerox thought entering everything via command line was a terrible idea.

"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." Twitter
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#33449: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:36:17 AM

Huh? Who is hating on corporations? They are essential to a modern economy, even if they have gained what I feel are excessive legal privileges of late. I'm not being radical or revolutionary by saying they shouldn't do these things; if anything I am being the conservative by demanding adherence to the status quo ante.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#33450: Oct 18th 2012 at 11:36:49 AM

Corporations are kind of like horses, you may need to cause them a little pain to keep them in line, you have to be careful to not feed them too much or they'll get slow, and you really don't want them walking over you.

Besides, co-operatives are corporations, and us dirty pinkoes love us some Mondragon.

edited 18th Oct '12 11:37:03 AM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

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