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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#333501: Oct 12th 2020 at 1:07:15 PM

I seem to recall we had this exact same conversation in this thread back in 2016. Everyone assumed Trump was going to lose and that it would be a devastating blow the GOP would never come back from. I'm not trying to be a doomsayer, I just think its a little early to speculate about the future of the GOP

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#333502: Oct 12th 2020 at 1:07:30 PM

Kimberly is notably in the midst of a huge sex scandal.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-secret-history-of-kimberly-guilfoyles-departure-from-fox

Apparently, she learned the lesson of Fox News to be taken seriously was to engage in the same horrific behavior as the men. My wife was more confused as to why Don Junior was dating a woman the same age as his stepmother.

My response was, "That is literally the least thing to be concerned about with any person in that group."

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#333503: Oct 12th 2020 at 1:10:40 PM

...*coughs* Oedipus *cough*

"You can reply to this Message!"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#333504: Oct 12th 2020 at 1:25:44 PM

I'd rather have Libertarians than Evangelicals as the dominant right force. Assuming by libertarians we mean the Bill Weld types, as opposed to, say, Objectivists, Randians, and other megacorporatists.

There isn't really any difference between the Bill Weld types and the Randians. They have the same ideological assumptions and priorities, the sole distinction is that the former have aren't as explicitly hateful when they fuck over the working class. Which is... not really better.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#333505: Oct 12th 2020 at 1:38:45 PM

I find Randian ideology is like an inverse communism with a secular atheist Dominionist prophecy angle.

Which is the worst element of Christianity.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#333506: Oct 12th 2020 at 1:50:08 PM

I think that's a pretty reductionist take, not to mention vague. "Communism" (really there have been a number of communist ideologies) had very different values and assumptions then Objectivism, and if the latter had ever been implemented it would almost certainly be structured differently.

I don't see any purpose to that kind of comparison.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 12th 2020 at 1:51:23 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#333507: Oct 12th 2020 at 1:51:04 PM

I feel that it's hard to make a deep dive take on Randian ideology when it is something I find very shallow.

Its an ideology that exalts the millionaire and the selfish over the worker and the selfless. The idea behind Atlas Shrugged is also a fundamentally Christian Revelations-esque take on society with the belief that a chosen select (by John Gault) will inherit the Earth after all the parasites/workers have exterminated each other without the elect to rule them.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 12th 2020 at 1:52:08 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#333508: Oct 12th 2020 at 1:52:00 PM

I edited my post, I don't object to your criticism of Objectivism. It's the "inverse communism" part I dislike.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 12th 2020 at 1:52:13 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#333509: Oct 12th 2020 at 1:53:12 PM

Ah, my view is that Rand created something that was based around repudiating the ideaology that drove her family from Russia and caused so much misery around her. Unfortunately, her view was to basically be every bit as reactionary and utopian but take the view the proletariat were the problems rather than the bourgeois.

So she created the ideology of selfishness and individual good versus selflessness and the common good.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 12th 2020 at 1:53:38 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#333510: Oct 12th 2020 at 3:20:06 PM

Objectivism as a philosophical system is very shallow, but if we’re flattening out nuance to that degree comparison becomes useless.

Arguably, objectivism was inspired more by the American pop culture (and propaganda) Rand consumed during her time in college. It’s no coincidence that it tracks almost like a cartoon version of classic American cultural tropes.

They should have sent a poet.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#333511: Oct 12th 2020 at 3:20:45 PM

I'm still reading the Mary Trump book, and, my gods, Fred Trump was such a nasty asshole. It's like having Ebeneezer Scrooge for a dad. Imagine having your children living in poverty while you sit on a mountain of millions of dollars.

I mean, Donald Trump is awful, but his dad really takes the cake.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#333512: Oct 12th 2020 at 3:23:07 PM

Fred Trump was an awful son of a bitch but he's never been President so he didn't do nearly as much damage to the world.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
KamonTheSkunk The Little Stinker Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#333515: Oct 12th 2020 at 3:48:59 PM

The thing is, history demonstrates that the conservative movement within the Republican party isn't really driven by ideology (this can be hard to comprehend for people on the left, for whom ideas are typically very important). Ordinary Republicans are driven more by loyalty to community and deference to authority than ideology. "If it's good for the people at my church/school/bridge club, it's the right thing to do." Trust in powerful people who are expected to organize society in a way that benefits everyone is a strong traditional element.

As for what specific policies those powerful people promote, that's... malleable. They typically follow the money. The Republican Party Primaries generally reward those with the strongest donor support, so the donor class generally get the policies they want regardless of who wins.

The Republican Party isn't going to "reform" itself, because that would not serve any of the interests that it consists of. Reform is Left-Wing thing. Conservatives "Restore", not reform, so expect that the next batch of primary candidates after Trump will promise to take the Republican Party back to it's "roots" (whatever that is imagined to be).

Conservatives, by definition, don't want to move forward, they want to preserve the past.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#333516: Oct 12th 2020 at 4:09:59 PM

He did indirectly, by turning Donald into what he is now.

He was also kinda weird. In his house, that he built himself, he had a library with no books, and a bar with no alcohol.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#333517: Oct 12th 2020 at 4:17:10 PM

That is weird. Maybe he intended to fill up the library and bar but never did? wild mass guess

Do not obey in advance.
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#333518: Oct 12th 2020 at 4:17:17 PM

Honestly, at this point, I expect Republicans to embrace out and out Authoritarianism, scaring the last "Moderates" in the party and becoming an elite clique that turns states like Alabama, North Dakota, Iowa and Oklahoma into essentially 1 Party States (as much as they can, thankfully the Federal Government can trump State Governments on a lot of matters), and anytime they win a Swing State they'll try their hardest to do the same.

We've already seen them embrace Neo-Nazism, and Trump is basically trying his hardest to be a Dictator. And the sad thing is, with "Conservative" Media giving them a never ending bubble, this won't destroy them until the Baby Boomers and Late Gen X'ers are mostly dead.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#333519: Oct 12th 2020 at 4:41:00 PM

How would that protect the assets of the Republican donor class?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#333520: Oct 12th 2020 at 5:28:25 PM

How would that protect the assets of the Republican donor class?

The same way fascism did. When the public is demanding increased democracy and wealth redistribution few things are more effective at stopping them than an authoritarian crackdown.

Socialists cannot take away your "well earned" money if they're all dead.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 12th 2020 at 5:28:57 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#333521: Oct 12th 2020 at 5:41:37 PM

It’s hard to imagine the Republicans easily returning to a semblance of moderation.

They’ve already got Qanon cultists and neo-Nazis running for and winning party primaries. They’ve got enough of their base embracing that sort of thing to give Trump solid, unbudging 40% support no matter how badly he screws everything up.

The populism, racism, and xenophobia aren’t side notes to their party; they are (along with social conservatism) the source of the party’s popular support. They’re what the power brokers use to bait/bribe regular people into voting for the economic interest of the super-rich. The Republicans can no longer leave that behind without ceasing to be a party - the “economic conservative + broadminded social liberal” or “Rockefeller Republican” segment of the US population is much, much smaller than many people (esp in the media) assume.

Trumpism is the GOP, and even if it loses, it will remain far more popular in electoral terms than anti-Trump Republicanism.

Edited by Galadriel on Oct 12th 2020 at 8:43:13 AM

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#333522: Oct 12th 2020 at 5:57:25 PM

So I hear Trump has declared himself immune to COVID. I also hear that earlier today, Trump left for Florida to campaign, and someone noticed something off about his entrance to Air Force One.

Namely he’s entering through a different, much lower entrance.

Edited by SatoshiBakura on Oct 12th 2020 at 8:59:06 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#333523: Oct 12th 2020 at 6:31:42 PM

... Why are you spoilering that? grin

Also, what does that indicate?

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#333524: Oct 12th 2020 at 6:35:48 PM

The implication being that he's not healthy enough to walk up the steeper regular set of stairs.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#333525: Oct 12th 2020 at 6:58:55 PM

I'm kind of surprised Air Force One doesn't have an escalator or something, to be honest.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times

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