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In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#333226: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:09:26 PM

[up][up] Because we cannot possibly know that the alternative would in fact have been better. You know that Trope where someone goes back in time and kills Hitler, only for whoever takes over Germany to go on to win World War 2? Silly as that particular scenario is, a lot of historians are wary of alternate history for this specific reason; even academic counterfactuals quickly turn into Wish Fulfillment or a Strawman Political depending on what kind of point the author wants to make.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Oct 10th 2020 at 5:12:15 AM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#333227: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:09:46 PM

The Taliban on Trump: "We hope he will win the election" and withdraw U.S. troops

No. What they like him for is that he'll hand them the country on a silver platter.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#333228: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:11:58 PM

[up][up] A little like the scenario where Sanders and/or Clinton leads to the end of American democracy.

There is little to suggest that not voting in the fascist leads to a worse ending. Heck, I don't see how anyone could be happy with how things are going, considering how much suffering has occurred over the last four years.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Oct 10th 2020 at 5:12:59 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#333229: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:12:29 PM

[up][up][up] So, what, it's good that the Republicans won just so everyone could see how ugly they are and then vote Democrat in the next election? And what would you say to the people who legit suffered and died because of that Republican win?

Edited by NickTheSwing on Oct 10th 2020 at 2:12:40 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#333230: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:13:11 PM

[up] Its what happened, and we cannot change the past, the best we can do is try to understand why things happened the way they did.

[up][up] I am "happy" with the current political trajectory of US electoral politics, because it seems very likely the democrats are going to win by a large margin, perhaps enough to enact structural reforms that could avert what feels like an inexorable process of democratic backsliding, and with the political will to commit to such a course of action.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Oct 10th 2020 at 5:16:29 AM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#333231: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:16:15 PM

Maybe we can avoid being happy about it then, or claiming that their deaths were for the best.

[up] Oh great, glad that their deaths were worth it then. Or that we should be okay that Trump did all this because him losing would have somehow been axiomatically.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Oct 10th 2020 at 5:17:20 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#333232: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:16:22 PM

"It is what it is." In other words.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#333233: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:17:17 PM

[up][up] In retrospect,"at peace with it" would be a better phrase than happy; the Trump presidency has indeed caused a great deal of suffering, but it looks increasingly likely that democrats will be presented with an opportunity to radically reshape American politics in a way that no political party has been able to since the 1980s, there's little point in dwelling on what might have been, because we cannot possibly know what that alternative would have looked like.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Oct 10th 2020 at 5:20:29 AM

NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#333234: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:21:45 PM

[up] Was Heather Heyer given the choice before hand about whether she was going to be a sacrifice for your great revolutionary experience?

I'm sure you consider yourself a good, empathetic person, and that guys like me are just monsters for not finding it in ourselves to have empathy.

Meanwhile I just find that kind of perspective completely disgusting.

Edited by NickTheSwing on Oct 10th 2020 at 2:23:11 AM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#333235: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:23:03 PM

"there's little point in dwelling on what might have been, because we cannot possibly know what that alternative would have looked like."

Then why did you start this conversation about alternatives?

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#333236: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:29:42 PM

On another topic, Trump does not appear to be quarantining himself.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#333237: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:30:02 PM

[up][up] I was responding to someone talking about alternatives.

[up][up][up] I think you're mischaracterizing my perspective. I am deeply sad for those who have died during this pandemic. I also believe, and not without good reason, that we as humans vastly, vastly overestimate the amount of agency that we have over the course of history, if we can be said to have any to begin with. The "great man" is only and always the visible manifestation of the innumerable underlying factors which influence the course of human interactions.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Oct 10th 2020 at 5:33:09 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#333238: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:30:21 PM

Evil will always destroy itself in the end.

The problem is how many it has to be in the process. I look forward to the idea that people will turn on Trump en masse now and realize just how systemic the problems in America are.

I wish it hadn't come to this.

If you think that means I have no empathy, I have lived in terror for 4 years my loved ones would DIE because of Trump.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#333239: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:31:50 PM

[up] You can be relieved the nightmare may yet come to an end and be upset about how we got here, instead of a "well, its okay because it all worked out, no need to dwell, no matter what has happened around you."

Edited by AzurePaladin on Oct 10th 2020 at 5:34:47 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
#333240: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:34:48 PM

Did the Captain ever say it's okay, though? To be honest, it seems pretty clear that they don't consider the deaths of innocent people to be a good thing in itself. Let's try to assume good faith, here.

It's like... I'm glad that good people sacrificed themselves to stop Hitler. This does not mean that I consider it good, in itself, for those people to die.

Edited by MichaelKatsuro on Oct 10th 2020 at 11:35:36 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#333241: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:35:20 PM

[up][up]Yeah, not dwelling on it seems the wrong takeaway. If for no other reason than we want to make sure there isn't a repeat

Edited by sgamer82 on Oct 10th 2020 at 2:35:44 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#333242: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:39:28 PM

[up] What I'm arguing is that we shouldn't focus on "what might have been", because that's fundamentally unknowable unless someone invents a time machine and time travel works in a fashion different from what General Relativity would predict. It makes for a nice work of fiction, I actually enjoy alternate history as a genre, but it's also not very useful, academic counterfactuals tend to limit themselves to extremely limited questions where the relevant variables are limited and known.


What we should strive to understand is WHY things happened the way they did, and direct our efforts to addressing those issues which are tractable in the hopes of preventing a future disaster. Looking back at this period in history, future historians will almost certainly trace the roots of the present crisis back to the 1980s if not even further, and to them it may very well look like we were already past the point of no return towards some sort of major political crisis before Obama was even elected.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Oct 10th 2020 at 5:46:23 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#333243: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:42:29 PM

No. What they like him for is that he'll hand them the country on a silver platter.

By ending a pointless quagmire.

I'm not an anti-interventionist but at some point, the US has to let go of the sunk cost fallacy and recognize when it has lost.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 10th 2020 at 2:42:37 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#333244: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:48:14 PM

[up] Yes, in a stable and orderly fashion. Not whatever clusterfuck Trump will cause, like he did when he threw the Kurds to the wolves.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Oct 10th 2020 at 11:49:20 AM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#333245: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:51:18 PM

So is there any news on Trump's super-spreader rally?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#333246: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:54:47 PM

Anyway, one thing I find somewhat concerning is that, as much as it seems likely Trump will lose in a landslide and the democrats will hold both chambers of congress, there's not that much talk about major reforms to the US political system, which even after close to 250 years continues to privilege white rural landowners. (just as it was designed to!)


The effort to establish a de facto popular vote for president is a good start, but something has to be done about the senate, because even with Trump standing to lose in a landslide the GOP still has an appreciable shot at controlling the senate, and will very likely take it back in the 2022 midterms.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Oct 10th 2020 at 5:55:06 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#333247: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:54:50 PM

Yes, in a stable and orderly fashion. Not whatever clusterfuck Trump will cause, like he did when he threw the Kurds to the wolves.

You won't hear me disagree.

Anyway, one thing I find somewhat concerning is that, as much as it seems likely Trump will lose in a landslide and the democrats will hold both chambers of congress, there's not that much talk about major reforms to the US political system, which even after close to 250 years continues to privilege white rural landowners literally by design. The effort to establish a de facto popular vote for president is a good start, but something has to be done about the senate, because even with Trump standing to lose in a landslide the GOP still has an appreciable shot at controlling the senate, and will very likely take it back in the 2022 midterms.

I don't know, abolishing the filibuster and admitting DC+Puerto Rico[1] as states is practically guaranteed. And court-packing has gone from "only something fringe radicals support" to "something both Biden and Harris have refused to rule out".

I'd say as far as major reforms go we're looking pretty good.

[1]= If Puerto Rico votes yes in the November referendum of course.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 10th 2020 at 3:04:28 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#333248: Oct 10th 2020 at 3:00:25 PM

Abolishing the filibuster and getting through proper voting rights reform would, on its own, be more important than any single policy that could be pushed.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#333249: Oct 10th 2020 at 3:02:46 PM

[up][up] Constitutional hardball tactics may be necessary but it's not an end in and of itself. Don't underestimate the ability of white nationalists and the GOP to reinvent themselves, and expand the definition of whiteness to ensure they remain relevant. Many Hispanics for example have somewhat conservative social and economic values values and skin that is no darker than someone from southern Italy.


Structurally speaking, the US political system is designed to force bipartisanship instead of parliamentary tactics. That works fine up until the point where the two parties are so deeply divided that compromise becomes impossible.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Oct 10th 2020 at 6:06:29 AM

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#333250: Oct 10th 2020 at 3:02:58 PM

@Xopher, from The Guardians live feed

Close-ups of Donald Trump’s right hand during today’s remarks from the White House balcony show a couple of flesh-colored bandages, presumably where he received intravenous injection.

His remarks were also significantly shorter in duration than anticipated: Trump spoke for 17 minutes after White House officials said he would be at the podium for a half hour.

"You can reply to this Message!"

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