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In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#333201: Oct 10th 2020 at 10:40:29 AM

[up]Yeah, probably.

Edited by M84 on Oct 11th 2020 at 1:40:48 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#333202: Oct 10th 2020 at 10:57:14 AM

Oh, I see.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
#333203: Oct 10th 2020 at 11:00:03 AM

I'm from Europe, but let me assure you that from my point of view, yes, the 2016 election did give a very strong vibe of "Vote for Hillary, even though not even we like her all that much."

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#333204: Oct 10th 2020 at 11:03:41 AM

This post by Nova got lost earlier but I do enjoy how Tillis's statement:

"The best check on a Biden presidency is for Republicans to have a majority in the Senate. And I do think 'checks and balances' does resonate with North Carolina voters."

Implies he expects Biden to be president.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#333205: Oct 10th 2020 at 11:06:06 AM

Ah yes, I do so love the checks of balances of <checks notes> getting nothing done during the middle of a pandemic and an ecological disaster.

Fucking Republicans.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 10th 2020 at 11:06:25 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#333206: Oct 10th 2020 at 11:10:33 AM

Ah yes, I do so love the checks of balances of <checks notes> getting nothing done during the middle of a pandemic and an ecological disaster.

What, no mention of the ongoing court appointments?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#333207: Oct 10th 2020 at 11:14:46 AM

If I mentioned everything wrong with their proposal I'd be here all day, and writing a book waii

But yes, that's another way it's awful.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#333208: Oct 10th 2020 at 11:46:58 AM

[up][up][up][up][up] I got a similar vibe, though people at my university were generally more positive about her.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
#333209: Oct 10th 2020 at 1:01:42 PM

So! Apparently, the Taliban support a Trump victory. Yes, those Taliban.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#333210: Oct 10th 2020 at 1:05:33 PM

Not surprising, they view him as the one most likely to withdraw troops. Not to mention that his incompetence, and the lessening of US power intrinsic to it, only helps them.

It's a logical position.

(though it's still profoundly funny that they were worried about his health when they heard that he was infected with Covid [lol] )

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 10th 2020 at 1:09:02 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#333211: Oct 10th 2020 at 1:22:27 PM

Trump: Endorsed by the Klan and the Taliban.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#333212: Oct 10th 2020 at 1:42:00 PM

"I can't really imagine how Bernie would have been worse than Trump."

He might be a... I got nothing.

In other news, Greta Thunberg has endorsed Biden.

Sanders controversial economic policies and being left holding the ball during the COVID-19 pandemic* could have brought to power someone with both the intention and the evil brilliance necessary to turn America into a Hungary/Poland style managed democracy. This could also have happened with a Hillary presidency, because for whatever reason her approval ratings were nearly as bad as Trump's. Both may very well have been saddled with a Republican congress either from inauguration or from the midterms onwards.


As it stands, it's looking increasingly likely this election will be a blowout of such a magnitude that the only thing Trump will be able to do is moan about it on twitter, barring some sort of highly organized voter intimidation and electoral fraud campaign that goes well beyond anything the various pro-Trump militias have shown themselves to be capable of. In this situation, I'm disciplined to second guess history.


* There were, in addition to Trump's obvious personal failings, numerous institutional and social failures which have made COVID-19 such a disaster in the US.

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#333213: Oct 10th 2020 at 1:42:46 PM

I would hope Biden would also withdraw from Afghanistan. There’s no endgame there; no victory condition. The US has been bogged down their for two decades.

A military intervention at least needs to have an achievable end goal, not just “But if we leave, the bad people win!”

Edited by Galadriel on Oct 10th 2020 at 4:44:17 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#333214: Oct 10th 2020 at 1:43:09 PM

Trump: Endorsed by the Klan and the Taliban.

I realize there's a good chance you're joking but the situations are pretty different.

The Klan likes him because he's a white nationalist, that's bad.

The Taliban likes him because he (at least claims to) supports leaving a war we've lost, that's good.

Sanders controversial economic policies and being left holding the ball during the COVID-19 pandemic* could have brought to power someone with both the intention and the evil brilliance necessary to turn America into a Hungary/Poland style managed democracy

This seems highly counterfactual, social democracy defuses the social issues that lead to reactionaries rising. They don't cause it.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 10th 2020 at 1:44:25 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#333215: Oct 10th 2020 at 1:46:14 PM

[up] Good luck implemented any of those policies if there's a Republican house or senate, which would be very likely in a 2016 scenario where democrats won. Also, it tends to take more than 4 years for the economic impact of a presidency to be obvious. Sanders or Clinton would've at first benefited from the strong economy that Trump inherited, but the pandemic would still have happened and under the reasonable assumption that the GOP controlled one or both houses of congress any relief packages would've been sabotaged to make the democrats look bad for not subscribing to the bible of Milton Friedman.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Oct 10th 2020 at 4:48:25 AM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#333216: Oct 10th 2020 at 1:48:29 PM

...I'm sorry, are we seriously saying that Sanders or Clinton winning 2016 would have made things worse?

[up] Because of the butterfly effect, it quite possibly wouldn't have happened. Depending, of course, your opinion on if God plays dice with the universe, as Einstein put it.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Oct 10th 2020 at 4:49:33 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#333217: Oct 10th 2020 at 1:49:32 PM

[up][up]Neither of those facts are unique to Sanders.

Also, what Azure said.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#333218: Oct 10th 2020 at 1:52:09 PM

In general, governments that managed the pandemic even moderately competently (and I have confidence a Democratic president could have done so) have gotten an electoral boost from it. Even if they were disliked when it started (e.g. Cuomo in NY, Doug Ford in Ontario).

The country would have been far, far better off if the Dems had won in 2016, and there’s no reason to think the pandemic would have hurt their chances seriously in 2020.

Edited by Galadriel on Oct 10th 2020 at 4:54:08 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#333219: Oct 10th 2020 at 1:53:09 PM

[up][up][up] Generally counterfactuals assume that natural disasters still happen, the only thing you can change is what the response would be. Plague and pandemic are somewhat borderline compared to earthquakes but even then we had every reason to think there was eventually going to be a pandemic at some point in the 21st century, epidemiologists have been warning about this for years.


@Azure: No, I'm saying that I'm disinclined to second guess history. There were a lot of ways things could have gone very badly for a Clinton or Sanders presidency, starting with the high probability of a Republican majority in the house or senate making any major policy changes DOA, and ending with a pandemic response that, while not as bad as the Trump administration, still suffered from the same institutional and social factors that made COVID-19 especially hard on the US compared to other countries.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Oct 10th 2020 at 4:55:59 AM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#333220: Oct 10th 2020 at 1:55:27 PM

[up] Not true at all, The Falcon Cannot Hear had the '37 hurricane hit elsewhere, Mc Governing generally changes things like this all the time, etc.

Hard Alternate History presumes the butterflies change everything, including and especially natural disasters.

Yeah, bad things could have happened, but they likely wouldn't be this bad. The Republican Party would be shattered if it lost against either one of the most unpopular candidates or a self-declared socialist. It would have been post '88 all over again, just swap in the Republicans.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Oct 10th 2020 at 4:57:22 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#333221: Oct 10th 2020 at 1:59:15 PM

[up] Like what happened after McCain lost to a black man? The GOP brass would of course come up with yet another gameplan of how they need to start appealing to minorities and blah blah blah, but the base would have responded by becoming even more radical, which I fully expect to happen when and if Trump loses. I'm not very found of the notion of the "Great Man" who sets the course of history; the underlying economic, social, and political factors which created a Trump victory and which are driving the US towards hyperpartisanship still remain.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Oct 10th 2020 at 5:01:49 AM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#333222: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:01:07 PM

The base became more radical anyway, Trump is currently fanning the flames of every far right movement from here to Kabul (literally), heck he basically said the Michigan Governor had the assassination and coup plot coming.

What would have happened if the Democrats won, is that all the state-sponsored terror Trump is endorsing would have been reduced. Not gone, almost certainly, but reduced.

but the base would have responded by becoming even more radical, which I fully expect to happen when and if Trump loses.

What's your solution!? Let the Republicans keep winning to avoid radicalization until a revolution!? Some of us won't survive that!

Edited by AzurePaladin on Oct 10th 2020 at 5:02:36 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#333223: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:03:30 PM

[up] They'd be more radical and in a good position to win in a blowout in 2020. I could genuinely see the GOP of today going along with a set of "reforms" along the lines of Hungary or Poland if they had the votes in congress, and they'd be more than happy to pack the supreme court to negate whatever appointments were made by the democrats.

What's your solution!? Let the Republicans keep winning to avoid radicalization until a revolution!? Some of us won't survive that!

That's not what I was even talking about. My point was literally what I said it was. What I see right now is the democrats poised to win the 2020 election decisively. That's a good thing, and because of that I'm disinclined to second guess the history that brought us to this point, because we can't possibly know if it would have been better.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Oct 10th 2020 at 5:06:05 AM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#333224: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:07:10 PM

...

I actually can't saw what I'm thinking, or I'd be suspended, but that sort of callousness disgusts me. How, after all that's happened, after all the pain, the families broken, dead in the streets, how can you say that this is good and that it doesn't require a second guessing?

Edited by AzurePaladin on Oct 10th 2020 at 5:07:19 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#333225: Oct 10th 2020 at 2:08:13 PM

That's a very common refrain among accelerationists - in fact it's their entire raison d'etre.

They want to just let the right win until glorious revolution happens sometime. They're sure it's gonna happen sooner or later, and people who'd be harmed or killed in the course of right wing victories and oppression should just be happy they died for the sake of GLORIOUS REVOLUTION.


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