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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#33201: Oct 16th 2012 at 10:56:20 PM

@Tomu-uguu~: One turd may be shinier, but both of them are still turds.

Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#33202: Oct 16th 2012 at 10:59:38 PM

Can we not refer to people as turds? They are not turds, they are people. One has a history in office, the other has been politicking around. We can measure what each has done and promised, we can see why what they promise worked, didn't work, didn't happen, did happen, etc.

EDIT: that is assuming you were referring to Obama and Romney, rather than Democrats and Republicans.

edited 16th Oct '12 11:01:11 PM by Enkufka

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry
Aqueos Nova here from Los Angeles Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Californicating
#33203: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:00:01 PM

[up][up][up]I meant in the slinging mud department, not the political views department, the latter is really more of an opinion thing for what is good and bad anyway.

We should just have this election by Russian Roulette. It would be a lot more fun.

edited 16th Oct '12 11:00:47 PM by Aqueos

Bet you didn't see that coming
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#33204: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:02:20 PM

@Enky: ...I wasn't referring to people as turds... I was referring to the parties as turds.

Aqueos Nova here from Los Angeles Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Californicating
#33205: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:03:02 PM

[up]No but you see different parts of the turds are of different qualities. One must keep this in mind.

Bet you didn't see that coming
Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#33206: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:04:08 PM

See my edit.

And again, We can measure what each has done and promised, we can see why what they promise worked, didn't work, didn't happen, did happen, etc.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry
Aqueos Nova here from Los Angeles Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Californicating
#33207: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:04:55 PM

[up] Candidates are individuals, not party lines. A party is not a perfect solution, it is a mixture. You can weigh the average, but you can't definitively define someone by their party.

edited 16th Oct '12 11:05:17 PM by Aqueos

Bet you didn't see that coming
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#33208: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:06:06 PM

I'm going to make a request that we stop referring to groups of people as turds. For the same reason I asked we stop referencing Santorum's google problem. It's disgusting on a base level and distracts us from intelligent discussion of the issue. Also it brings us down to a very low level. If we can't think of a way to discuss this without bringing up fecal matter all the time then we probably aren't mature enough to keep discussing this topic.

Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#33209: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:06:55 PM

[up][up]This is true.

[up]Also, this.

But one party is much, much more homogenous than the other.

And I'm out. I feel like I'm talking in circles at this point, and I'm just pissed off about it.

edited 16th Oct '12 11:07:15 PM by Enkufka

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#33210: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:14:12 PM

How do we measure the "value" of a political party?

Answer that question, and the argument can continue-otherwise, it's just a bunch of sophistry.

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#33211: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:14:31 PM

@Ace: Gonna give you a [awesome] for that last post. I get tired of the lack of respect being flung about during the current political debates.

People; stop coming up with derogatory plays on Obama's name, and stop calling him "Mittens". Yes, we don't like them. But Obama's still President, and Mitt Romney's still a presidential contender. If we're going to insult them, let's at least denounce them properly.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Aqueos Nova here from Los Angeles Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Californicating
#33212: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:15:09 PM

[up][up]As one measures the value of a pokemon, you don't. One can lecture and debate on its pluses and minuses its appearance how well it gets things done, if it actually works.... is it any good.

But at the end of the day we're comparing apples to oranges and we need to pick our favorite and move on.

edited 16th Oct '12 11:19:28 PM by Aqueos

Bet you didn't see that coming
HilarityEnsues Since: Sep, 2009
#33213: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:20:09 PM

As much as I don't like how everyone's first reaction to criticism of Democrats is to point at Republicans and talk about they're worse as if that somehow justifies their actions, as much as I can't stand our parties... yeah, calling them turds is bad form.

Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#33214: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:22:41 PM

The value of a party can be determined by examining your moral system and the party's actions. It's not apples and oranges, you look at what they do and you ask what is more important. Then you measure the efficacy of their policies and how attentive they are to the facts.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry
Aqueos Nova here from Los Angeles Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Californicating
#33215: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:24:50 PM

[up]Value to you or value period?

Value to you is much different. On an individual basis one can weight the value of your mother against the value of your father if you wish.

I hate to say it, but politics generally just doesn't go anywhere because in the end it's us bashing our moral compasses against one another. It's like trying to move an elephant with a bendy straw.

edited 16th Oct '12 11:26:00 PM by Aqueos

Bet you didn't see that coming
ch00beh ??? from Who Knows Where Since: Jul, 2010
???
#33216: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:26:11 PM

value to you. at the end of the day, you can very easily say "this politician has been good/bad for me as an individual." No apples or oranges necessary.

"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." Twitter
Aqueos Nova here from Los Angeles Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Californicating
#33217: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:27:51 PM

[up]Parties are not politicians and vice versa. Individual politicians are much simpler obviously, they aren't a range of things. Still though I meant more on an interpersonal everyone basis. There's no definitive A party is better than B party, if there was we would only have one party.

edited 16th Oct '12 11:28:42 PM by Aqueos

Bet you didn't see that coming
Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#33218: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:30:14 PM

Value to the voter. That's what matters in the end, because the voter elects the politician. The voter's moral system, the voter's attentiveness to facts and statistics and the voter's ability to get proper facts and statistics affect how they evaluate and how well they evaluate the value of a party or individual.

And we can argue as to the facts and statistics, and we can argue the moral systems.

And We can compare the stated goals of both parties and chart what was happening over time, and when they have the same goals, you compare them. Both parties have stated that they want more jobs and "a better america."

Derp. Tired. I should have said this in the beginning: Both parties claim to want the same goals: to make the US safer from foreign enemies (whether real or imagined), to make the US more profitable, to make the lives of the population better, and to better serve the people. You compare what both have done for those goals. Direct comparison.

edited 16th Oct '12 11:32:30 PM by Enkufka

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#33219: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:30:32 PM

And yet the Civil Rights Movement and the Lily Ledbetter Act did happen. (Which are as much social as political, but then I don't get how anyone can think that the social and political are so sharply divided when no, they do in fact bleed together in most areas.)

Look, it's not pointless bashing together. Things happen when you pursue things of value to you, and convince other people to work with you. It's how we got unions.

Also, this pointless equivocating is how people get so uninvolved in politics. Because the process you just described is apparently pointless to engage in because nothing ever changes. Except that that is completely false.

Aqueos Nova here from Los Angeles Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Californicating
#33220: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:32:24 PM

[up]Things do shift and move, but when was the last time someone had a major epiphany and changed their values in a heated debate? If it involves even a TINY amount of opinion it doesn't happen. Things do change after all, but bashing people over the head with political views just doesn't work. It's more of a gradual change due to experiences and people and events and so on.

edited 16th Oct '12 11:33:09 PM by Aqueos

Bet you didn't see that coming
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#33221: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:32:35 PM

If you're saying "Both parties are turds" you're saying that in a certain context.

I'm asking "how do you measure value in the context that you're claiming both parties are turds in."

Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#33222: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:33:45 PM

Aque: Arlen Specter, who passed away earlier this week, changed from Republican to Democrat over the Lily Ledbetter act and Republican opposition to it. People change.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry
Aqueos Nova here from Los Angeles Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Californicating
#33223: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:35:53 PM

[up]Well yes but that was over time, plus the party lines shifted on him. I was saying more or less have you ever seen someone in a political debate suddenly come to the conclusion the other side is correct even if they can hold up no point or counter to a point?

Bet you didn't see that coming
GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#33224: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:37:58 PM

Aqueos: My mother is a pretty staunch Republican. Seriously the number of issues I've had over me being gay ugh... (And honestly it's more complex than the general wave the bible argument in her case so let's not even go there)

Point is she abhors fox news, and generally watches BBC, NHK, or ZDF, and I know she watches nightly business report.. the round table bleh bleh bleh. She watches the local news and gets a bit irritated with the lean but you know whatever. Hell I don't think we even GET fox news.

> abhors fox news
> watches BBC
> watches NHK
> watches Nightly Business Report

Your mother is awesome.

(I don't know what ZDF is.)

Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#33225: Oct 16th 2012 at 11:39:11 PM

King Zeal did over an abortion debate sometime last year or the year before. And Starship Maxima has a constantly evolving point of view over homosexuality, trans issues, gay rights, and other topics.

And frankly I do not debate others to try to change their views, as good as that might be, but to illustrate what facts and reasoning I am using to arrive at my conclusion.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry

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