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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330226: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:56:01 PM

From what I understand, while Burisma was not technically illegal, it certainly was a little shady and had hints of nepotism. It is one of those things in politics that are not necessarily bad, but they don't look good either, and are easy shots against a politician's integrity.

This is basically why conflicts of interest are so important to avoid. Burisma was a conflict of interest, because Biden involved himself in it. Biden should have stayed away as far as he could at that point in Hunter's business dealings.

[up] Good move, but will Trump's campaign team agree with it?

Wow, 30 pages in one day. That is 750 posts.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:57:58 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#330227: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:58:01 PM

And if Trump's team doesn't agree: "Trump refuses more debates because he's a failure at debating".

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#330228: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:58:53 PM

When discussing foreign commentary on the debate it’s worth remembering that translation has been noted to often introduce a pro-Trump bias.

This is because Trump has very poor command of the English language, he messes up words a lot, if you translate him you have to either try and translate incoherence or cut it and thus make him seem much more coherent.

Also I’d note that Biden was doing a lot of body-language communicating when Trump spoke, so if you only heard the debate you’ll have missed a fair bit of Biden’s reacting to Trump’s statements.

As for aggression, remember the media environment this is happening in, to much aggression from Biden would have resulted in the press putting equal blame on him and Trump for it being a shouting match. It’s a hard needle to thread to both push back on Trump and not get blamed for the debate being a mess.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Boston Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
#330229: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:59:18 PM

Well, thank Goodness for that. If only we could have invented such a thing before last night! /s

Re: Biden on law enforcement — He did articulate something of a plan, which was to invite everyone to the White House to talk it out. Now, you, I, and the streetlamp all know it's a little more convoluted than that, but its something, and frankly, any scenario that doesn't get some honest conversation between the relevant stakeholders is just stagnating the issue.

In regards to future plans — well, No. 45 doesn't have one, and said as much during the Republican National Convention. That's a gaping hole in which anything is an improvement.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330230: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:59:25 PM

Why hasn't Biden been using his campaign slogan during the debate? Or is that not a thing?

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#330231: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:00:14 PM

Burisma operates in the Ukraine where everything is built on bribery and favor trading. Biden's son was put in there in hopes that he would get them access to American political figures.

...

And TRUMP talks about corruption and nepotism.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#330232: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:00:26 PM

Frankly, if anything I seem to want to blame Chris Wallace the most. For a "moderator" it seems he moderated absolutely fuckall.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#330233: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:01:06 PM

Why hasn't Biden been using his campaign slogan during the debate? Or is that not a thing?

Because 'no more malarkey' makes him look even more like a fossil.

Sadly, "No more bullshit" is what Americans need to hear.

Frankly, if anything I seem to want to blame Chris Wallace the most. For a "moderator" it seems he moderated absolutely fuckall.

They did a count. Trump interrupted 127 times.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 30th 2020 at 2:01:32 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330234: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:02:26 PM

The mute button made it to our national radio news. Fantastic. grin

[up] I was referring to "Build Back Better".

I think Wallace did okay under the circumstances. What was he supposed to do in that moment? I feel it is a bit unfair to blame Wallace for Trump's misbehaviour.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 11:04:25 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#330235: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:03:04 PM

I was hard on him last night, but now that I've had time to reflect I don't think he could have prepared for that onslaught of lies and interruptions. I do take issue with him not fact checking though. Not calling out lies just gives the advantage to the liar.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330236: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:06:31 PM

The problem with fact checking during the debate, especially with a habitual liar like Trump, is that it just gives more air to the lie, as well as taking away time from the actual debate. If they had to fact check every lie Trump made, they wouldn't have gotten halfway through the topics.

And if the moderator does it, it basically becomes an argument between a candidate and the moderator, which you don't want in any case. Leave calling out lies to the candidates.

Fact checking is something for after the debate, not during it, or else checking facts is all you will get.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 11:07:53 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#330237: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:06:39 PM

From the way I see it, Biden's mistake was thinking that he could do a normal debate with a populist as his opponent.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#330238: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:08:07 PM

Not a populist, a rampaging, egotistical blowhard with no respect for truth, dignity, or decorum. Biden knew exactly what he was getting into. All he had to do to win was not sound like a moron.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SteamKnight Since: Jun, 2018
#330239: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:09:10 PM

To be honest, this entire talking about Biden's performances has gone silly. It goes from "Biden shouldn't descend to Trump's level because civility" to "Biden should be more forceful and go for the throat like an alpha and dominate like you know" to "Why is Biden not like Trump with bombastic voice and catchy slogans" Do people (not in this forum, but in general really) want civility in politics or a circus? Because I find it weird that people can complain that American politics is too boorish because America but also wanting this debate to become more heated like a WWE match.

I'm not as witty as I think I am. It's a scientifically-proven fact.
Reflextion from a post-sanity world (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
#330240: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:09:15 PM

@ Fact Checking: So the solution would be to give each candidate a button he can press to make a loud airhorn sound whenever his opponent says something false. (The problem with this, naturally, is that Trump's time would consist of nothing BUT airhorn noise. Even more than it normally does, actually.)

Edited by Reflextion on Sep 30th 2020 at 5:09:49 AM

Someone did tell me life was going to be this way.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330241: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:13:31 PM

I don't think they mean that kind of heated, but I think they want to see one powerful moment (or more, if at all possible) where a candidate puts themselves on the map. A great slogan can certainly help, just look at how inspiring "Yes We Can" was for Obama, but it can also be a moving personal anecdote, like Biden was trying with his son.

Lets ask this another way: what do you feel a debate like this should be like? What sort of thing do you want to take away from it?

And in a wider sense, have you ever seen a great debate? What did you remember from that?

[up] Actually, Trump seems to have left his verbal air horn at home this time. I did not catch him going into campaign voice, even when passionate.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 11:14:45 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#330242: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:14:02 PM

I don't think anyone here has claimed Biden should have been more forceful? He was not in the position to do it, really. And it's also very much not his persona. Which is why I point to Wallace for that matter.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#330243: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:15:07 PM

Biden's "Will you shut up, man?" did seem to become the most quoted soundbyte of the debate, so he got that in.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#330244: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:15:30 PM

[up][up][up] Civility. It was the Mc Cain/Obama debate way back when. Unfortunately civility went out the window the second Trump stepped into the room for the most part, with Biden holding onto it as much as he could.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Sep 30th 2020 at 5:15:38 AM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330245: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:15:46 PM

In what sense, calling out lies? Like I said, that would just clutter up the debate, which is likely why Biden avoided that.

[up] So what stuck with you from the Mc Cain/Obama debate? What was your takeaway from each candidate?

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 11:18:18 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#330246: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:17:27 PM

[up]x5 Honestly, I suspect that deep down lot of people are just waiting for somebody to punch Trump in the face. :/

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 30th 2020 at 11:18:25 AM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#330247: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:18:46 PM

[up] He needs that punch to his face, a punch incredibly powerful.

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#330248: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:19:28 PM

Why would somebody potentially hurt his hand like that?

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#330249: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:20:00 PM

[up]Catharsis?

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#330250: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:21:22 PM

I don't think punching Trump would garner a lot of effect. It would be cathartic, I guess. Funny, too. But would it achieve much?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

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