TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#330201: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:23:55 PM

No reason we can't discuss them or take their perspective to inform our own. If we disregarded foreign opinions in this thread we'd lose half our posters.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330202: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:23:58 PM

It matters a great deal to how foreign countries shape their opinions of the US, though, which in turn can influence how foreign politics interacts with your country. US politics does not operate in a vacuum.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#330203: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:23:59 PM

I think the key takeaway is that even if the debate did not really move the needle too far in either direction, that's still not very good for Trump at all. If you look at it from the perspective of "all biden needs to do is hold his current lead", then he performed quite well on that front.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#330204: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:24:22 PM

While I understand how the outside world views us is important, for this particular issue I'm at a lose for why it matters much.

Also, I kind of just have to give Biden a leeway on some of the more uncouth actions just because I imagine it wouldn't have happened (or at least wouldn't have been as bad) if anyone besides Trump was his opponent. Because basically anyone else would have behaved better.

Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#330205: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:27:21 PM

Personally I don't see how Biden could have performed better and why this is being held against him. It would be like watching someone debating against a leafblower and complain the person couldn't drown out the noise of the leafblower.

Edited by Resileafs on Sep 30th 2020 at 4:27:37 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330206: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:27:52 PM

Indeed, Biden played it safe, and in that regard he succeeded against Trump.

But I feel those debates should be about more than just the current political situation. Ideally, a candidate should grab such a moment to expound his vision for the future, tell the public what he is going to do for them. And that is what I and others have been missing here. Trump and the politics he stands for doesn't just need an adequate answer, they need a great answer, a strong retort, not a quiet rebuff. The next president will have more fish to fry beyond just beating Trump.

[up][up] I will give him that leeway as well, he clearly did not intend to go that far, even apologizing for his clown comment. Trump is clearly quite successful in goading Biden into losing his cool.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:29:13 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#330207: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:28:43 PM

Honestly, the whole thing kinda reminds me of holding a presentation in class - there's always this one arsehole who'll insist on interrupting you or just being generally obnoxious.

And Trump is extremely obnoxious.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:30:18 AM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#330208: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:31:27 PM

[up][up] Somebody DOES need to put Trump in his place though, something it felt like Biden accomplished several times in the debate.

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330209: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:31:43 PM

[up][up][up][up] I think Biden could have been more forceful on giving his actual vision on how to run things, rather than responding to Trump's comments. The police brutality bit was a prime example of that: Biden allowed himself to be pressed into the defensive on "law and order", and did not really say anything about what he thinks of the matter, of how he is going to deal with these problems of racism and police violence.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:32:01 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#330210: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:32:02 PM

I give Biden points for not simply trying to deck Trump.

[up] Trump talked over literally any attempt to make a point.

Seriously, someone needs to gag him when it's not his turn.

Edited by RainehDaze on Sep 30th 2020 at 9:33:56 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330211: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:33:41 PM

[up] Interesting you should mention that, I was expecting a lot more walking around and posturing, but they both stayed with their podium and did not really try any of that. Very different from that Clinton debate.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#330212: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:35:19 PM

But I have to admit, I basically checked out after the first hour, was there anything particularly egregious in the second?

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#330213: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:40:15 PM

Just to comment, I'm not going to dismiss off-hand analysis from Dutch or any other non-U.S. country's media.

But at the same time, as Redmess acknowledged, they have their own biases, and so their negative take on Biden's performance is not any more objective than the fairly positive one among American media and Americans polled.

Also, given that Americans are the ones voting in the election, it is good for Biden that he was rated positively in polls. Even if the polls only reflect the political breakdown of voters, that's still good because it means there are more Democratic voters. Granted, there are obviously people who will vote for Trump but who also think he performed badly at the debate.

My other thought is that although Biden did go into much elaboration on his policies regarding racial inequality and police brutality (beyond IIRC talking about having some kind of summit), he did give detailed policy answers in some areas when allowed by Trump and the moderator and he also has given much more detailed policy answers when in a town hall format.

Edited by Hodor2 on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:43:16 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330214: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:40:29 PM

Trump got increasingly belligerent near the end, interrupting more and laying on the more personal attacks.

I noticed that Trump remained pretty calm and collected throughout, but when he talked about the 2016 election, there was some real anger there. It suggests that his comments on how the Dems tried to cheat with the Russia investigations and such are not just campaign rhetoric, he really believes the Dems have treated him unfairly. It was, if anything, at least a genuine moment of anger, rather than his stage show campaign outrage.

Biden had a similar moment when his sons came up. That really hit home, and as mentioned before, he could have made more of that moment. He seemed to have been somewhat unprepared for that, which is a shame.

[up] I think it is important to note that it is relative criticism. It is not that Biden did terrible, but he did not give his all either.

Ask yourself this: do you feel Biden gave his absolute best in this debate?

As for the polls, from what I understand debates have limited influence on voting behaviour as it is. But a good debate can be inspiring, while a mediocre debate just fades away, and a bad debate can stain reputations.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:44:29 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#330215: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:40:33 PM

Trump behaved like Trump.

But the big issue was where he said the Proud Boys needed to stand by and show up at polls to protect democracy.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
devak They call me.... Prophet Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
They call me.... Prophet
#330216: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:41:28 PM

I do find it depressing the Dems can't do better than Biden, but do we have to repeat the discussion we had only a few hours ago? I think that particular message is pretty clear by now.

For the rest, Biden has basically a low bar to clear of "don't fuck it up badly". Trump lowered expectations so far that you needed a shovel to find the bar for Biden to clear. If the debate had been one sentence per person, Biden would come out on top by saying a coherent sentence. I mean they paint him as a senile drugged-up idiot. Literally all he has to do to defy that image is to... show up and talk normally.

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#330217: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:41:49 PM

When is the next debate? I think the Vice Presidential debate is next Wednesday, but I don't know when the next Presidential Debate is.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#330218: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:43:46 PM

In Trump's warped,twisted mind they're like his personal army of brownshirts

He's probably thinking he could unleash them as the nuclear option if all else fails,telling them to 'stand by' was basically him priming the grenade before he throws it

Edited by Ultimatum on Sep 30th 2020 at 8:44:03 AM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#330219: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:45:14 PM

Biden had a similar moment when his sons came up. That really hit home, and as mentioned before, he could have made more of that moment. He seemed to have been somewhat unprepared for that, which is a shame.

He seemed to be prepared for the Burisma stuff, less so for Trump mixing his sons up and talking about drug problems.

As I said, I'm very surprised he didn't try to hit Trump then.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330220: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:46:01 PM

[up][up] Yeah, that seems to be his reasoning.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:46:25 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#330221: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:47:11 PM

In Trump's warped,twisted mind they're like his personal army of brownshirts

He's probably thinking he could unleash them as the nuclear option if all else fails,telling them to 'stand by' was basically him priming the grenade before he throws it

I take a small amount of comfort that Trump's army are a bunch of internet bullies and worthless for an actual coup.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#330222: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:47:55 PM

> As I said, I'm very surprised he didn't try to hit Trump then.

That's what Trump wants,he wants to provoke Biden into rage,he made him cry previously

edit:> take a small amount of comfort that Trump's army are a bunch of internet bullies and worthless for an actual coup.

Some are,some have guns and will hurt someone if Trump tells them to,thats the danger

Edited by Ultimatum on Sep 30th 2020 at 8:49:13 AM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330223: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:48:25 PM

[up][up] Maybe, but those people can do a lot of harm all the same. Don't get in their way if you can help it. They are genuinely dangerous, if not on the national level, but certainly on a personal level.

[up] Making him cry actually worked in Biden's favour then, it humanized him. This is why I felt he should have shown more emotion at that moment, not less. Like one commentator pointed out, what people take away from these debates, if anything, are strong personal and emotional moments, points where candidates bare their soul for the public and talk like a person rather than a politician.

And this works in the negative too. Does anyone here remember anything off the top of their heads from the Clinton debate besides Trump stalking Clinton like a shark?

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:51:58 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#330224: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:52:28 PM

To be honest, I was kind of pausing throughout because of the cringe, but I have been confused about the discussion here of the sons. Now it makes more sense that Trump was confusing them.

Obviously I have my own biases, but I didn't see any issues with Biden's responses, especially giving the fact that Trump was apparently confusing Hunter Biden with Beau Biden.

As far as Burisma goes, Trump has been pushing this conspiracy theory version as part of his Russiagate spin.

Although I'm sure that Trump made some people in the audience come away thinking (not completely unfairly) that Hunter was a failson who succeeded through personal connections, I don't think Trump successfully pushed the idea that there was serious impropriety let alone his conspiracy theory of how somehow Hunter proves that Russiagate is a hoax.


Total posts: 417,856
Top