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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
While I understand how the outside world views us is important, for this particular issue I'm at a lose for why it matters much.
Also, I kind of just have to give Biden a leeway on some of the more uncouth actions just because I imagine it wouldn't have happened (or at least wouldn't have been as bad) if anyone besides Trump was his opponent. Because basically anyone else would have behaved better.
Indeed, Biden played it safe, and in that regard he succeeded against Trump.
But I feel those debates should be about more than just the current political situation. Ideally, a candidate should grab such a moment to expound his vision for the future, tell the public what he is going to do for them. And that is what I and others have been missing here. Trump and the politics he stands for doesn't just need an adequate answer, they need a great answer, a strong retort, not a quiet rebuff. The next president will have more fish to fry beyond just beating Trump.
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I will give him that leeway as well, he clearly did not intend to go that far, even apologizing for his clown comment. Trump is clearly quite successful in goading Biden into losing his cool.
Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:29:13 AM
Hope shines brightest in the darkest timesHonestly, the whole thing kinda reminds me of holding a presentation in class - there's always this one arsehole who'll insist on interrupting you or just being generally obnoxious.
And Trump is extremely obnoxious.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:30:18 AM
We learn from history that we do not learn from history![]()
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I think Biden could have been more forceful on giving his actual vision on how to run things, rather than responding to Trump's comments. The police brutality bit was a prime example of that: Biden allowed himself to be pressed into the defensive on "law and order", and did not really say anything about what he thinks of the matter, of how he is going to deal with these problems of racism and police violence.
Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:32:01 AM
Hope shines brightest in the darkest timesJust to comment, I'm not going to dismiss off-hand analysis from Dutch or any other non-U.S. country's media.
But at the same time, as Redmess acknowledged, they have their own biases, and so their negative take on Biden's performance is not any more objective than the fairly positive one among American media and Americans polled.
Also, given that Americans are the ones voting in the election, it is good for Biden that he was rated positively in polls. Even if the polls only reflect the political breakdown of voters, that's still good because it means there are more Democratic voters. Granted, there are obviously people who will vote for Trump but who also think he performed badly at the debate.
My other thought is that although Biden did go into much elaboration on his policies regarding racial inequality and police brutality (beyond IIRC talking about having some kind of summit), he did give detailed policy answers in some areas when allowed by Trump and the moderator and he also has given much more detailed policy answers when in a town hall format.
Edited by Hodor2 on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:43:16 AM
Trump got increasingly belligerent near the end, interrupting more and laying on the more personal attacks.
I noticed that Trump remained pretty calm and collected throughout, but when he talked about the 2016 election, there was some real anger there. It suggests that his comments on how the Dems tried to cheat with the Russia investigations and such are not just campaign rhetoric, he really believes the Dems have treated him unfairly. It was, if anything, at least a genuine moment of anger, rather than his stage show campaign outrage.
Biden had a similar moment when his sons came up. That really hit home, and as mentioned before, he could have made more of that moment. He seemed to have been somewhat unprepared for that, which is a shame.
I think it is important to note that it is relative criticism. It is not that Biden did terrible, but he did not give his all either.
Ask yourself this: do you feel Biden gave his absolute best in this debate?
As for the polls, from what I understand debates have limited influence on voting behaviour as it is. But a good debate can be inspiring, while a mediocre debate just fades away, and a bad debate can stain reputations.
Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:44:29 AM
Hope shines brightest in the darkest timesI do find it depressing the Dems can't do better than Biden, but do we have to repeat the discussion we had only a few hours ago? I think that particular message is pretty clear by now.
For the rest, Biden has basically a low bar to clear of "don't fuck it up badly". Trump lowered expectations so far that you needed a shovel to find the bar for Biden to clear. If the debate had been one sentence per person, Biden would come out on top by saying a coherent sentence. I mean they paint him as a senile drugged-up idiot. Literally all he has to do to defy that image is to... show up and talk normally.
In Trump's warped,twisted mind they're like his personal army of brownshirts
He's probably thinking he could unleash them as the nuclear option if all else fails,telling them to 'stand by' was basically him priming the grenade before he throws it
Edited by Ultimatum on Sep 30th 2020 at 8:44:03 AM
have a listen and have a link to my discord serverHe seemed to be prepared for the Burisma stuff, less so for Trump mixing his sons up and talking about drug problems.
As I said, I'm very surprised he didn't try to hit Trump then.
He's probably thinking he could unleash them as the nuclear option if all else fails,telling them to 'stand by' was basically him priming the grenade before he throws it
I take a small amount of comfort that Trump's army are a bunch of internet bullies and worthless for an actual coup.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.> As I said, I'm very surprised he didn't try to hit Trump then.
That's what Trump wants,he wants to provoke Biden into rage,he made him cry previously
edit:> take a small amount of comfort that Trump's army are a bunch of internet bullies and worthless for an actual coup.
Some are,some have guns and will hurt someone if Trump tells them to,thats the danger
Edited by Ultimatum on Sep 30th 2020 at 8:49:13 AM
have a listen and have a link to my discord server![]()
Maybe, but those people can do a lot of harm all the same. Don't get in their way if you can help it. They are genuinely dangerous, if not on the national level, but certainly on a personal level.
Making him cry actually worked in Biden's favour then, it humanized him. This is why I felt he should have shown more emotion at that moment, not less. Like one commentator pointed out, what people take away from these debates, if anything, are strong personal and emotional moments, points where candidates bare their soul for the public and talk like a person rather than a politician.
And this works in the negative too. Does anyone here remember anything off the top of their heads from the Clinton debate besides Trump stalking Clinton like a shark?
Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:51:58 AM
Hope shines brightest in the darkest timesTo be honest, I was kind of pausing throughout because of the cringe, but I have been confused about the discussion here of the sons. Now it makes more sense that Trump was confusing them.
Obviously I have my own biases, but I didn't see any issues with Biden's responses, especially giving the fact that Trump was apparently confusing Hunter Biden with Beau Biden.
As far as Burisma goes, Trump has been pushing this conspiracy theory version as part of his Russiagate spin.
Although I'm sure that Trump made some people in the audience come away thinking (not completely unfairly) that Hunter was a failson who succeeded through personal connections, I don't think Trump successfully pushed the idea that there was serious impropriety let alone his conspiracy theory of how somehow Hunter proves that Russiagate is a hoax.

No reason we can't discuss them or take their perspective to inform our own. If we disregarded foreign opinions in this thread we'd lose half our posters.