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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330176: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:35:55 AM

So you are saying that this debate was less civil than his debate with Clinton? That is something, indeed.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330177: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:41:39 AM

Speaking of civil, there was a surprising amount of civility between Trump and Biden outside of the actual debate. Biden greeted Trump with "how are you doing, man?", and I caught him calling Trump "Donald" a few times.

Which kinda makes me wonder what these two are like behind the scenes.

Also, Biden called Trump a clown, then apologized. I guess he didn't want to go quite that far.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 8:48:53 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#330178: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:49:55 AM

Did Trump reciprocate, that's the question. Biden is quintessentially polite most of the time, even with people he dislikes.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330179: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:53:38 AM

Hard to tell, it was kinda in the background right at the start.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, and that is really concerning, is that Trump basically called on his supporters to check voting stations for fraud on election day. That alone is going to cause a lot of trouble, I think.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#330180: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:54:13 AM

Yep. Thank goodness I'm voting by mail, but not everyone has that luxury.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330181: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:56:36 AM

I looked at the footage, I can't quite make out what Trump answers, but he seems to greet him back friendly enough.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#330182: Sep 30th 2020 at 12:07:01 PM

Two pretty good sum-ups of the debate

1 2

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#330183: Sep 30th 2020 at 12:09:21 PM

[up]

Ehhhh... Shaun is one of those guys who like to play coy with the fact they're promoting voter apathy that I mentioned earlier - he literally did the whole "I'm not telling you to not vote for Biden, but I wouldn't" spiel.

He's very much what's wrong with parts of the online left.

I wouldn't trust the guy's opinion on anything related to this election.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 30th 2020 at 9:31:57 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#330184: Sep 30th 2020 at 12:09:50 PM

I was disappointed when I discovered that about Shaun, who I otherwise quite liked before then.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#330185: Sep 30th 2020 at 12:11:03 PM

[up] He's very much one of those people whose reputation would improve a lot if he just shut up on Twitter.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#330186: Sep 30th 2020 at 12:22:22 PM

Shaun's Youtube content is excellent, a shame that his Twitter takes are so gabrage.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330187: Sep 30th 2020 at 12:22:54 PM

Trevor Noah points out that there are some legitimate issues with mail in voting:

The main problems seem to be signatures not being recognized by the system, improperly signed envelopes, and so-called "naked ballots" being thrown out because of a missing secrecy envelope.

And given the narrow margins involved, this could be a real issue even without Republican interference, affecting thousands of votes.

Basically, through human error, measures meant to prevent fraud are instead causing legitimate votes to be thrown out mistakenly.

And that's not even going into faulty instructions and duplicate ballots, or having the wrong address on the envelope. When the government starts messing up the ballots, not even with malice, how are voters supposed to vote properly?

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 9:27:31 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#330188: Sep 30th 2020 at 12:36:35 PM

So, apparently Biden used an Arab word for the first timenote  in a presidential debate.

Trump's allies are worried about his performance in this debate while the world is treating this as America's Dethroning Moment of Suck.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#330189: Sep 30th 2020 at 12:58:10 PM

[up][up]

Yeah, that's why I'm opting for in-person voting. My signature has changed drastically since I first registered, to the point that I actually brought my ID back to my polling station to reassure them. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any way to officially alter it for their files.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330190: Sep 30th 2020 at 12:58:18 PM

Yeah, I'm hearing more criticism as well, such as how Biden just smiled when Trump fails to condemn white supremacists, instead of giving a full throated condemnation. Or how he allows himself to be goaded by Trump. And even how uncivil Biden himself is being, noting that Biden actually gives more personal insults to Trump than the other way around.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#330191: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:00:04 PM

Vox has an exclusive poll from Data for Progress on the debate and it's looking good for Biden.

Biden beat Trump by a 52-39 margin, a very strong lead which is entirely deserved.

He also beat Trump in a number of other areas:

  • Respondents preferred Biden to nominate a new Justice by a 48-40 margin.

  • They judged Biden to be better for the integrity of the election by a 49-36 margin.

  • 53 percent of respondents said Biden mostly told the truth, while only 36 percent said the same about Trump.

  • 62 percent said that Biden is “a decent man” versus 38 percent for Trump.

Overall I'd say this conclusively demonstrates that Biden won the debate. Something that's quite terrible for Trump considering the former's steady lead.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#330192: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:07:39 PM

@Redmess-

So in an attempt to be more civil than earlier, where are you hearing this from?

I think there is kind of a point in terms of lack of civility (it is kind of unprecedented to tell an opponent to shut up/calling them a clown, both of which Biden did).

But the criticism of Biden's response to Trump's racism seems off-base IMO because Biden outright labeled Trump as racist and called out his refusal to condemn white supremacist supporters. So, it feels like a weird criticism to focus on Biden's response to Trump's "stand back and stand by" comment by ignoring what came before.

Also, while granting that these are different issues, I see some contradiction between criticizing Biden for not pushing back hard when Trump attacked his son and criticizing Biden for descending to Trump's level.

Edited by Hodor2 on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:09:58 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#330193: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:08:25 PM

538 seems to agree, more people think Biden won. But it's all small shifts.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330194: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:10:15 PM

Could you qualify that "deserved" a bit more? Do you think it means Biden had a good debate, or merely that he performed better than Trump?

Also, I do wonder how much of that poll is objective opinion, and how much is simply decided by partisanship. Democrats will tend to declare Biden the winner, while Republicans will say the same for Trump.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#330195: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:11:45 PM

Surprisingly the 538 folks were more bullish on Trump than I expected prior to their poll reading. But everyone else has at the very least said Biden came out better. A few have criticized the first half hour or so of Biden's performance but feel he came around afterwards. Everyone agrees it was a mess though, and a mess caused entirely by Trump.

Edited by Parable on Sep 30th 2020 at 1:12:25 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#330196: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:12:35 PM

[up][up] That's why I linked the 538 poll, which has a before and after sample of the same people.

[up] I also expect Biden would comport himself much better than Trump if the rules are being followed. [lol]

Edited by RainehDaze on Sep 30th 2020 at 9:13:07 AM

ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#330197: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:14:20 PM

[up][up][up] It's hard to be nonpartisan when one person is attacking the opponent's family verbally, is unable to talk bad about actual racists and terrorists, and is basically lying 90% of the time. Like, this may be one of the only times in American history where you have to be partisan, you're either okay with all of that stuff happening, or you're not. If you're not, why are you supporting him or acting like you will?

Edited by ScubaWolf on Sep 30th 2020 at 4:16:20 AM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330198: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:15:13 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] That's the reaction one of the commentators gave on a talkshow called "De Vooravond" (which I am not very familiar with), and he did not go into further detail, unfortunately.

And again, I was not the one making the civility point specifically, but I think it is fair to say that when you are the "they go low, we go high" party, it is not a good look to go low anyway.

Also, I think it is possible to push back harder while remaining civil.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:15:29 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330199: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:17:20 PM

[up][up] While that is certainly true, I don't think the numbers would have been much different had that not happened. The vast majority of viewers would have already made up their minds.

I think part of what happens is that Dutch commnentators are much more willing to lay into Biden, because they tend to be more politically left than Biden. I've talked about this before how the left is anything but monolithic over here, and politics are generally a bit farther to the left, though that is changing a bit with the rise of the extreme right.

Another comment I heard for instance was concern that Biden is apparently the best answer to Trump the Democrats have to offer, and what that means fot he future of the country. Clearly Biden is not seen as an optimal candidate to oppose Trump.

That is again not to say that they are pro-Trump, if anything it is the opposite, namely that they tend to the left of Biden.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:22:04 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#330200: Sep 30th 2020 at 1:21:45 PM

I mean, Dutch media commentators...don't really matter in American politics, nor does their perspective.


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