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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Well, isn't that the story of the 1930s and 40s? All Germans weren't Nazis, all Japanese weren't racist megalomaniacs. All they needed was enough people to go along or fail to oppose the movement long enough to institute their totalitarian societies, after which fighting back stopped being an option.
We are one Trump term away from that in America.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I don't think the "not electing Trump" thing would do that "fix" for the United States. Or well, not fix but prevent the United States from dancing with Fascism.
Trump is not the cause. He is not even the result. He is a symptom.
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes![]()
Indeed, it is a very banal sort of evil. Most evil does not come from Hitlers or Trumps, it comes from average people around you holding bad beliefs, and thinking people in power holding these same bad beliefs can make things better for them, often not even considering just how much worse these people are than them. Most Germans were appalled at what Hitler did. That is a big part of why the country swung so hard away from that kind of extremism. It is also why we only see a resurgence now, now that that generation of Germans is dying out.
Agreed, just getting rid of Trump won't fix the underlying problems. Those problems got him elected in the first place, after all.
Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 7:24:57 PM
Hope shines brightest in the darkest timesWant to know how dangerous it can be to demonize evil people?
Right after the war, there was a slew of "biographies" (and I use the term loosely here) from armchair psychologists trying to explain the why of Hitler. These books didn't really talk about Hitler himself, rather they talked about his parentage, the problems in his family, both from Adolf's youth and from his parents and other family, and then basically concluding that Hitler was the product of inbreeding and moral degeneracy, that he was born evil, basically. All this to avoid acknowledging that Hitler was an otherwise normal human being who ate sugar and loved his dog like everybody else.
The irony here is of course that that sort of reasoning is exactly the sort of flawed pseudoscience the Nazis used to write off entire groups as degenerate and "born evil". These authors were basically rehashing Hitler's own rhetoric against him to demonize him, to paint him as a sort of anti-Christ.
If this reminds you of Voldemort, by the way, you would be spot on. Voldemort was depicted as an inbred degenerate literally born evil, and that is what these authors were aiming for as well.
This is, by the way, why you should not read supposed "biographies" from right after the war. They tend to be reactionary and biased, not to say very misguided in their goals.
The real, awful takeaway from Hitler is not that he was some inhuman hellspawn, but that he was human, and that, under the right circumstances, anyone could become a Hitler.
Hope shines brightest in the darkest timesNothing concrete has been announced, but Wa Po had a blurb saying the Debate Commission is "considering changes" after what happened last night.
@Mio: I should clarify that I am consciously working to NOT dehumanize opposition, I'm generally the first person to push back against dehumanization. I'm bemoaning the fact that I cannot comprehend their beliefs and why they hold them, which means despite my efforts I am in at least some respects failing in that effort.
I actually find it easier to understand Trump than his supporters. He's a narcicisst, everything he does is colored by a psychological NEED to be the center of attention. He's that way because of some combination of genetic predisposition and being socialized in an context that reinforced those behaviors, and a lifetime of privilege has reaffirmed his belief that he's the center of the universe and can get away with anything.
You see, when you start talking about 40% of a countries voting base and maybe 20% of its population, I am faced with the statistical reality that a large number of psychologically normal hold beliefs that from my perspective are delusional. I can understand Donald Trump, and consequently I don't feel that visceral bewilderment at his actions that I recognize as a precursor to dehumanization which must be pushed back against consciously, which is deeply uncomfortable because I'd like to think I'm better than that.
@Redmess: That's inconsistent with psychological research if you're talking specifically about Hitler, but I totally agree with your core point. There was very likely something, psychologically speaking, wrong with Hitler (if not from upbringing or predisposition then certainly from all the drugs he was taking) and certainly with Stalin who clearly shows signs of paranoid delusions from early on. That wasn't the case for the millions of people who followed Hitler's orders to wipe
the Jewish race" from the face of the Earth, the men who were operating the gas chambers and staffing the SS death squads. All indications are that these people were not simply mindless drones following orders, and too many people participated in it for them all to have been psychopaths.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on Sep 30th 2020 at 1:57:13 PM
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More generally, conservatives really do think differently from liberals, and this regularly leads to those two groups misunderstanding each other's believes and motives. This is not just a US thing, but more generally a conservative vs liberal (or even socialist) world view.
I literally had the glass box idea the first time Trump interrupted.
I don't think Trump will agree to being muted, though. His main debate tactic is clearly to interrupt, if only subconsciously. He really did try to follow the rules at first, but I think his instincts to interrupt got the better of him after a while.
Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 7:55:47 PM
Hope shines brightest in the darkest timesRace is neck and neck in South Carolina
in the presidency and even closer with the Senate.
"Trump is not the cause. He is not even the result. He is a symptom."
He is busy aggressively furthering its goals, in part by diminishing the nation's capability to fight it off.
Trump is symptom, cause and result. It's a feedback loop. Kicking out trump is essential to not furthering the goals of fascism. It's not the end of the fight against fascism but it's a big step.
Here is the problem with the "last gasp of a dying ideology" narrative.
Yes, fascism is inherently self-destructive. For lack of anyone else to attack, fascists will inevitably turn on one another.
But we can't afford to wait for that. We can't afford to wait for Fox News and Breitbart to start eating each other. We can't afford to wait for Mitch and Trump to start eating each other. Why? Because that would mean that we've lost.
That fascism is self-destructive is cold comfort to the people who they would destroy first, before destroying one another. Any outcome in which we allow the GOP to destroy themselves means we have lost black rights. It means we have lost gay rights. It means we have lost trans rights and Hispanic rights and atheist rights and women's rights. They would only destroy each other once they have already destroyed us all.
We cannot wait for them to destroy themselves from within. That is the worst case scenario. To protect the rights of literally everyone we're doing this for, they must be destroyed from without. The pillars of corruption they use to subvert democracy must be torn down by Democrats. That is the only way forward.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.While it is true that Trump is in itself a problem, I think there are much deeper problems than Trump. Racial inequality and police brutality are not Trump-problems, for instance. They run much deeper than just Trump, or even just Republicans. Just look at how people like Cuomo and Bloomberg have been part of the problem with police violence against black people.
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There is an even bigger danger in fascism, in that they can turn wholly self-destructive in the face of defeat. Think of Hitler's last order to basically blow up half of Germany: if the Nazis could not have Germany, then Germany should die with him.
Thankfully his generals had already turned against him and that did not happen, but I think that can be a real danger from megalomaniacs with access to an army. Sometimes they'd rather destroy their own country and people rather than lose.
Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 8:19:18 PM
Hope shines brightest in the darkest timesAnd most of those problems will only get worse if Trump remains in office. Getting him out is the first critical step.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Okay found this Hill article with slightly more concrete info on what the Debate Commission said.
Their state reads:
"The Commission on Presidential Debates sponsors televised debates for the benefit of the American electorate. Last night's debate made clear that additional structure should be added to the format of the remaining debates to ensure a more orderly discussion of the issues. The CPD will be carefully considering the changes that it will adopt and will announce those measures shortly."
I'm a little surprised that this is apparently the first time something like Trump interrupting Biden has ever happened. I figured that was pretty much par for the course for American politics. Is that a case of civil in debate, savage in ads?
Also, does that mean Trump never interrupted Clinton during her two minutes?
Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 8:27:41 PM
Hope shines brightest in the darkest times

That in itself is the scarier part to me, personally. That "average" people can tacitly approve of or support heinous things, even when it would only take the bare minimum to do anything else.