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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Imca (Veteran)
#330026: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:24:11 AM

Voters don't vote on excitement for there guy any way, Rather the most reliable voters turn out because they dislike the other guy more...

This is how conservatives keep sweeping elections as of recent, they run on hate...

It also makes Biden a pretty grave threat for Trump, because try as he might.... people just seem flat out incapable of hating Biden, the republician party keeps trying, but given that he is an old white man, none of there usual attack vectors stick.

[up] It wasn't excitement for Trump that got him in, it was hatred of Hillary.

Edited by Imca on Sep 30th 2020 at 6:25:46 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330027: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:25:45 AM

I don't mean to make a strawman, but what I mean to say is that people were definitely excited for Obama, and that was treated as important, so I don't understand why it suddenly does not matter for Biden.

[up] I disagree, there was definitely excitement for Trump amongst his base.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:27:01 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#330028: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:27:09 AM

"Trump may be a terrible president but he did win an election. And at the start he was nobody's favorite. It's clear proof that excitement matters, even though it shouldn't . If only policy mattered, Sanders would've been in his sixth term"

Trump won an election in a way that's basically impossible to replicate. He loses those white suburban moms, he loses. James Comey shuts the fuck up, he loses. Hillary shows up even once in Michigan, he loses. Hillary replaced by literally anyone else, he loses. Russian interference stymied, he loses. It's not sustainable to act like a lunatic on national TV with a candidate who is basically hardcoded to beat him.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#330029: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:27:17 AM

Excitement matters in that there is a basic threshold - if people are unexcited enough that they are waffling over whether to vote for Joe Biden or Trump, or whether to vote at all, that's a problem. But once you cross that basic threshold, it's not particularly important. Your vote doesn't count for two if you cartwheel all the way to the polls.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#330030: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:28:05 AM

[up][up][up] Obama had policies behind the excitement. He wasn't just standing on the stage hyping people up about jack shit.

Policy is what should matter in the end.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:28:35 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#330031: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:28:24 AM

[up][up]Exactly. Once their mind is made up, that's that.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Sep 30th 2020 at 9:28:34 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
devak They call me.... Prophet Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
They call me.... Prophet
#330032: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:28:37 AM

If people voted for trump because they hated Hillary, why is he still at a stable level in the polls? That makes no sense.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#330033: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:29:21 AM

And to be frank, the notion of not having to live through another four years of Trump should be bloody exciting enough, if you ask me.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330034: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:29:52 AM

[up][up][up][up] I'm not disputing that, of course he did, my point is that that excitement definitely mattered for Obama, it wasn't just fluff.

[up] Regardless, some centrist voters need that push, and that could end up being crucial to Biden winning.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:30:53 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#330035: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:31:38 AM

Because we all knew what we were getting when Biden won the primaries and Exciting wasn't one of them. He isn't. He never has been. We're okay with that. Maybe this is an age/non-American thing because most of us over here who grew up with Biden have seen him debate before and knew we weren't going to get Obama style rhetoric. So bringing it up now, especially when he's winning, gets rather irksome.

Edited by Parable on Sep 30th 2020 at 6:32:18 AM

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#330036: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:32:21 AM

[up]x4 Partially for the out and out Racism Fascism "Screw the Democrats at all costs!" attitudes, but mostly because he's the Republican.

Edited by DingoWalley1 on Sep 30th 2020 at 9:32:36 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330037: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:34:32 AM

Also, I wouldn't call Rutte boring. He is perfectly capable of making a passionate point. I may not like his politics, but he sure is charismatic.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#330038: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:35:47 AM

Maybe this is an age/non-American thing

It's not - I'm German and we really don't want any "excitement" in our politics. :/

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Imca (Veteran)
#330039: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:36:23 AM

If people voted for trump because they hated Hillary, why is he still at a stable level in the polls? That makes no sense.

Racisim, Sexisim, Hatred of various forms.

Polls and excitement are not the same thing, Biden is DOMINATING the polls over Trump, up by 8 points across the board and sometimes into the double digits...

Yet, is he exciting? No, but he doesn't have to be.

[up] Don't blame you man, while it is falsley started up I can see where the ""May you live in interesting times" is a curse" idea came from.

Edited by Imca on Sep 30th 2020 at 6:37:57 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#330040: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:37:07 AM

Trump has more energy and is more exciting than Biden in the same way a shit flinging chimpanzee would have more energy and be more exciting than Biden.

Though admittedly, the chimpanzee would probably be more pleasant company and smell better.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330041: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:37:43 AM

[up][up][up] I obviously don't mean that kind of excitement. But I think a good politician should be inspiring, and able to provide a vision for his country. And I just did not get that from this debate. If people had to make up their minds purely from this debate, I doubt they'd be able to.

[up] For a moment I thought you were implying Trump is pleasant company. grin

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:40:07 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
devak They call me.... Prophet Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
They call me.... Prophet
#330042: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:40:46 AM

This is a very strange argumentation scheme to be honest.

I don't see the problem with criticizing Biden. His opponents will do so anyway, except less charitably. Better to have a healthy discussion on our own terms. I don't see why we wouldn't be allowed to want him to improve. I've said it before but he needs to be more than not trump. Any chance to show that is good.

We've brought up before that he's not very exciting. That may not be a problem, but it can certainly help. Margins are thin, especially because of the EC. Dotting the I and crossing the T can make a difference.

Furthermore, we can argue what politics should be like but we cannot ignore what it is either. Denying trumps fanbase and such is kind of pointless

Edited by devak on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:43:21 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#330043: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:42:39 AM

[up]Nobody's saying don't criticize Biden. Just don't go saying that Trump "won" the debate (despite polls indicating most think Biden did better) because he threw a tantrum.

Disgusted, but not surprised
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#330044: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:43:21 AM

[up][up] The problem is that a lot of the criticism comes with the heavy implication of "I'm not saying you shouldn't vote for him, wink wink...."

There's a whole (sadly not small) subset of people who are basically promoting voter apathy under the guise of criticism and it's putting people on edge.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:43:34 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#330045: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:44:31 AM

[up]Yeah, there's that. A lot of people are aggressively apathetic (yes I'm a fan of Jimquisition) and will go pretty far to justify their apathy.

Edited by M84 on Sep 30th 2020 at 9:44:44 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330046: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:47:15 AM

I didn't say Trump won. I meant no one really won decisively, but Trump managed to dominate the debate for most of it.

Let me be absolutely clear once again. You should not vote for Trump. I will NEVER support Trump. Let there be no doubt that I will never imply such, nor that you should vote for Trump or not vote for Biden. You will not see any wink wink nudge nudge shit from me, and any such suggestions are unfortunately mistaken. I don't do that sort of thing. Frankly I'm terrible at it. So no, I am not stealth supporting Trump, and I would rather not have to drill that into anyone's heads every time I criticize Biden.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:50:56 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#330047: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:48:30 AM

Trump "dominated" the debate like a schoolyard bully dominates a spelling bee. He made an utter fool of himself, and Biden exercised laudable restraint.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#330048: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:48:34 AM

[up][up][up] What pisses me off the most are the people who don't have any skin in the game themselves and pull this shit.

"I'm not telling you not to vote for Biden, but if I were American, I wouldn't personally vote for him", he says, heavily winking at his audience.

Bonus points for being influencers, which means abusing your platform to mislead people.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:50:02 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
devak They call me.... Prophet Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
They call me.... Prophet
#330049: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:49:02 AM

I'm not the one saying he won. The most common article on my feed is that nobody won.

I'm actually annoyed at the bullshit the media likes to peddle. "the real loser is the voter" yea dipshit whose fault is that.

I agree with redness in that Biden missed a bunch of easy goals, but on the whole he did fine. I just think it should've been an easy win, given that Trump's talk points are predictable.

Biden is ahead, but the EC favors Trump. Races also have a tendency to get closer to the end, and with trump's refusal to leave, bidens lead should be as big as possible.

Imca (Veteran)
#330050: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:49:11 AM

Domminating isn't good when you do so in a way that paints you as a target.

To win Trump needs to make the campaign about Biden, which he failed spectacularly at, showcasing instead himself....

Getting into an argument with the moderator...

The conservative moderator who threw him the softest of softballs.

Edited by Imca on Sep 30th 2020 at 6:53:16 AM


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