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Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#329526: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:00:52 PM

It's also possible that government services can be simply mismanaged or be subject to corruption in the form of emblezzing and such. Though it should be noted that this is something that often happens in more laissez-faire right-wing governments as well, to my recollection reagan's administration had a lot of corruption.

Certainly, I don't dispute that government mismanagement has existed and will continue to exist somewhere. Just that it's not why people disbelieve that government can help us.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 28th 2020 at 1:01:12 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#329527: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:03:13 PM

Not at all, the people who talk about "government mismanagement" in the US have never lived under any kind of authoritarian leftist government.

Scratch the US out of that.

The argument is used exactly the same in every single country. The possibility of corruption is a bigger monster in the minds of most voters than systemically corrupted systems that need money in order to be restructured into something functional and noncorrupt.

Edited by Aszur on Sep 28th 2020 at 2:03:48 PM

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#329528: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:03:37 PM

Is it good form to be able to vote, but choose not to?

DavidMerrick from Ottawa, ON Since: Jun, 2018
#329529: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:04:31 PM

Not really, no. Especially not with this election.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#329530: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:05:13 PM

Not really. If you have power to vote, might as well use it. Unless you think the two candidates are literally identical, which is rarely the case. It definitely isn't in Biden and Trump's case, and anyone who says they are the same, is either lying or being paid by the Russian government (and we have factual evidence of this).

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#329531: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:05:15 PM

[up][up][up]Absolutely not. Because when you fail to vote, you are basically abstaining from having a voice in how society is run and it can easily lead to the rise of people who will make your life worse, because you did not care to be informed and make a decision earlier.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Sep 28th 2020 at 5:05:34 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#329532: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:05:27 PM

No.

Put simply, if you can vote but don't, your vote might as well have been for the winning candidate. Also, you basically forfeit any right to complain about government actions until you do vote, because you didn't try to do anything about it.

People who talk about not wanting to pick the lesser of two evils wind up endorsing the greater evil.

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#329533: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:06:03 PM

It’s a good way of telling you don’t care about any of the issues. I could specify, but that’d take a while.

My musician page
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#329534: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:07:07 PM

If that’s the case, then why doesn’t the government let everyone vote?

Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#329535: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:07:23 PM

No. Choosing not to vote accomplishes nothing but removing yourself from any semblance of control over the direction of the country. Elections don't get do-overs if there aren't enough votes, and refusing to vote at all tells politicians precisely nothing about why you're not voting, and thus does nothing to encourage them to shift in whatever direction you want.

Refusing to vote is an utterly empty gesture that accomplishes nothing but to sate the non-voter's personal sense of superiority.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#329536: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:08:09 PM

[up][up] Because one of the two political parties in the USA wants to make sure the electorate stays as small and gerrymandered as possible so they aren't voted out of power.

Also, the left has been pushing the voting rights act and trying to enforce it for decades so that everyone can vote.

Edited by RainehDaze on Sep 28th 2020 at 9:08:19 AM

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#329537: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:08:33 PM

[up][up][up]Because the bad guys know that they’re less popular. They’re the ones who made it like that, not the government on the whole.

Edit: [nja]

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Sep 28th 2020 at 4:08:52 AM

My musician page
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#329538: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:13:54 PM

If that’s the case, then why doesn’t the government let everyone vote?

If you're asking about voting age limits, and why children can't vote, it's because babies who don't know how to read the names of the people they're voting for aren't smart enough to decide who gets to be in charge.

If you're asking about why people who have gone to jail, or immigrants who haven't gotten their official citizenship yet, or anyone else who is intelligent enough to make an informed decision about who should be in charge, legally can't vote? It's because Republicans know they'd lose otherwise, and are basically cheating to make sure they stay in power. One of the big causes Democrats have been fighting for is making sure that, whether they choose to use it or throw it away by not voting, at least they have the choice to vote.

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 28th 2020 at 4:19:31 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#329539: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:14:53 PM

Many governments do, many even require people to vote.

When you choose not to vote you removal yourself from the political process, you also remove yourself as someone campaign’s try hard to win over (especially if you’re young). Campaigns respond to protest votes, they respond to spoiled ballots, they respond to the other party’s voters, but they very rarely respond to non-voters, because it’s very hard to work out why they didn’t vote.

As for the US specifically, barriers to voting have their roots in slavery, after slavery was ended many states passed laws to stop black people voting, originally they simply banned them, then they required them to pass impossible tests, then when that was outlawed (by the federal government) they made is so that people who’d committed crimes couldn’t vote, then they charged black people with as many nonsense crimes as they could.

I think in one case the guy behind the law outright stated that they were barring criminals from voting so that African Americans could be stopped from voting (as they’d label as many African Americans as possible criminals).

Edited by Silasw on Sep 28th 2020 at 8:17:48 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#329540: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:15:04 PM

If that’s the case, then why doesn’t the government let everyone vote?

Are you referring to voter suppression, or to age limits?

In the former case, Republicans pass voter suppression laws to target demographics that are more likely to vote for Democrats in order to rig the system in their own favor so they can maintain power.

In the latter case, 1) because children don't know enough to make informed decisions about the government. I remember as a kid being taken to a polling place with my parents one year when they went to vote. The polling place had little "ballots" for kids to fill out, with pictures of the candidates and short blurbs about them. I "voted" for whoever's picture I liked the best.

And 2) because kids' votes would almost certainly just become extensions of their parents' votes, either indirectly by not knowing or caring enough about the subject and asking their parents who/what they should vote for, or directly by parents literally just filling out the ballot in their kid's name.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#329541: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:15:22 PM

People are responsible for doing the right thing themselves. They shouldn’t need to be told what the right thing is. If we keep getting poisoned rivers and corrupt businesses, it is our responsibility to do what we can about them. The federal government can’t magically fix all our problems.

While they shouldn't need to be told, sometimes they absolutely do - those poisoned rivers, for example, led to the Cuyahoga river catching fire thirteen times between 1868 and 1969 due to the sheer number of pollutants present there, and it was Richard Nixon - not exactly a fan of the hippies - who signed the legislation forming the EPA. And the bare fact of the matter is - people don't care so long as the problem doesn't hurt them. We've seen this in Flint, Michigan in just the past decade, and the general response is "Well if they don't like it where they are, they should just move!", as if relocating is that straightforward.

The same thing goes for health and safety standards in the workplace. Just look up the Radium Girls (hourly employees who were encouraged to lick the paintbrushes of radioactive paint for watches, and most of whom developed mouth and throat cancer as a result) or the seminal Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire (in which the employers routinely locked the exits to prevent employees from sneaking breaks, and led to 146 deaths as they couldn't flee... and the owners paid just $75 per victim while collecting a $400/victim policy on their employee's lives) which was the catalyst for the labor movement.

As for tax cuts, I'll put it to you this way - think of tax money like gasoline. It can be used for a lot of stuff, but in a pinch, you can utilize it to add fuel to the economic fire. When the economy is sputtering from a recession, or from a once-a-century health crisis, this can be very handy in keeping that fire going while we try getting more of the normal fuel for that fire. But if you pour it onto a bonfire that's already roaring along, you're just depleting the fuel you'd normally use for other, more necessary endeavors.

As for voting, there's an old Calvin and Hobbes strip that had Calvin espouse that view - "When I grow up, I'm not going to read the newspaper and I'm not going to follow complex issues and I'm not going to vote. That way I can complain that the government doesn't represent me. Then, when everything goes down the tubes, I can say the system doesn't work and justify my further lack of participation... It's a lot more fun to blame things than to fix them."

Edited by ironballs16 on Sep 28th 2020 at 4:24:32 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#329542: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:18:33 PM

"Allow everyone to vote" is a bit of a loaded phrase. According to our Constitution and its amendments, all citizens 18 and over may register to vote and cast ballots in all elections unless their franchise has been stripped by due process of law (commonly, if they are serving time for a felony).

However, it is not in the interests of certain people to allow all eligible voters to do so. Specifically, the Republican Party wins more elections when fewer people vote. Accordingly, it acts to systematically disenfranchise and block likely Democratic voters from participating in democracy.

It does this in a variety of ways:

  • Denying or canceling voter registrations for spurious reasons.
  • Reducing access to polling stations (cutting locations and hours).
  • Instituting voter ID and other requirements that create obstacles for low-income persons to vote. (Example: require voter ID, then reduce hours at licensing centers in inner cities. Charge fees for ID that burden poor people.)
  • Blocking early voting, voting by mail, and other ways to expand access.
  • Blocking mandatory voter registration, mandatory paid leave on election days, and similar things.
  • Making it harder for students studying out of state to vote either in their home state or in the state they reside.
  • Aiding and abetting institutional racism in law enforcement and incarceration to ensure that a disproportionate number of black men are convicted of felonies and thus stripped of voting rights.
  • Refusing to restore voting rights to felons after their sentences are served, or requiring repayment of exorbitant fines and fees to restore voting rights.

The Democrats want to allow everyone to vote, period.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 28th 2020 at 4:19:19 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#329543: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:22:08 PM

In the latter case, 1) because children don't know enough to make informed decisions about the government.

There’s debate around how intrinsic that it, there’s a reason that minimum voting ages have shifted over time and vary between countries, children have what information we give them, if we keep them in the dark then they will be uninformed, but that doesn’t have to be the way.

If you want to go over this further I’m happy to talk about it in the general politics thread.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#329544: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:26:12 PM

Every adult of either sex, all races, and all creeds should be able to vote. You either believe in democracy or you don't.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#329545: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:26:22 PM

I mean sure, you can quibble about exactly where the line should be drawn, but I don't think there's any good faith argument to be made there there shouldn't be a line at all.

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#329546: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:28:38 PM

I used to think that things were more complex than just “blue good, red bad”. But the way you’re putting it, maybe they aren’t.

The main reason I’m anti-tax is because my parents grew up in poor neighborhoods—my dad is an immigrant from Cuba, but now maintains a steady and wealthy business. They support having more power for the people.

Let’s face it: there is no way to fix all of our problems. We’re just working to fix as many as we can.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#329547: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:29:19 PM

If that’s the case, then why doesn’t the government let everyone vote?

Because one of the oldest partisan arguments in the history of our nation is whether or not we even should be a democracy.

Going through the American education system, you'll hear a lot about the perfect, infallible, flawless system that our infinitely wise and genius Founding Fathers created. Those are lies and propaganda. All of it. American history classes are political tools meant to instill nationalist loyalty to the U.S. in children.

The reality of our government is that it wasn't actually designed to be a true democracy. The founders didn't want a true democracy. They wanted a republic, a loosely-affiliated alliance of independent states whose leadership is elected by a vote exclusively reserved for the wealthiest white men of those states.

Over the past two and a half centuries, we've had to drag the country kicking and screaming towards actual democracy. And the work isn't done yet. History is still in motion today, and our flawed country is better than the Founding Fathers originally intended in many ways, but remains heavily flawed nonetheless. We still have a lot of work to do even just to achieve a basic concept of a democratic nation, where every one person is entitled to one vote.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 28th 2020 at 1:30:34 AM

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Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#329548: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:29:38 PM

[up]X3 The children’s democracy movement is very much a good-faith one. It is however also an off-topic one, so if we want to discuss it further I’ll reply in the general politics thread.

I used to think that things were more complex than just “blue good, red bad”. But the way you’re putting it, maybe they aren’t.

How the system is currently and how it should be aren’t the same thing. The fact that there’s a very clear split between the two major parties on basic human rights and respect for democracy is a sign of something wrong. In a functioning system thing wouldn’t be anywhere near this simply (as one can see by looking at a number of other democracies).

Oh and it very much is complex, even when parts are simple, there’s always a ton of complexity beneath the surface. There will also always be edge case exceptions, I believe that the Democrat senate candidate in Nebraska has been revealed to be a sexual harasser, his Republican opponent may well be a better choice in that instance (though I believe Democrats have disavowed the official candidate and are running a write-in candidate).

Edited by Silasw on Sep 28th 2020 at 8:35:06 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#329549: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:31:49 PM

Mind you, Republics aren't inherently bad.

There's nothing wrong with the idea of electing people smarter than you to make your decisions. I fully believe Obama is a man better suited to represent my needs than me on all things.

It's just that large sections of the government do not wish to have the people to have ANY voice.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#329550: Sep 28th 2020 at 1:32:37 PM

Actually, we have a voting age thread one or two pages back in OTC.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

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