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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Yeah people viewing it as their civic duty to pay taxes and participate in the democratic process has helped society advance a lot. You can take civic pride in being a apart of something bigger than yourself, plus everyone looks at you like you’re a saint if you tell them about contacting the tax man to ask if he wants some money.
I admit that as a little kid I also thought "taxes = bad, therefore Republicans = good" because I had it beaten into my head that hard-earned money was being taken unfairly from people who worked to get it.
As I grew up and actually saw more of real life for what it is, I realized that the people who earn the most, usually work the least hard for it, and get that much money through the most underhanded and dishonest methods. I also realized just how much money is necessary for the government to do it's job correctly in helping those who need it the most, and why proper taxation is necessary to ensuring that people be treated fairly in practice and not just in name only.
The main argument I see against taxes is usually an assumption that the government is going to mismanage them (creating lower quality services than the private sector) and/or they don't want to be forced to pay for something someone else they don't like might use and resent that paying taxes is some expected part of contributing to society that they did not agree to.
I find both arguments to be specious personally. The first is an argument for electing a better government, not trusting the private sector to do everything, because capitalism incentivizes companies to act in scummy ways as it is and some things shouldn't be run on a for-profit basis.
The second I'm not sure how to respond to other than "them's the breaks". If you don't want to live in a society that requires you to pay taxes, the only really viable solution is to go live like a hermit in the wilderness or something.
Also from another perspective of the "Big Tax" vs "Small Tax" argument is to see it this way:
If lower income taxes means the best for the people living there then the best places in the world to live in would be the Cayman Islands, Somalia, and The Bahamas alongside....Monaco.
If highest income taxes means the worst for the people living there then the best places in the world would be Finland, The Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Japan...
Would you rather live in Somalia, or The Netherlands?
Even this though is extremely reductive to how taxes work as there are a lot of elements at play such as infraestructure and many other aspects of the economy. Bottom line is, taxes alone are hardly indicative and if anything they seem to be biased to say that higher taxed rated countries have a higher quality of life, and not the opposite (though affirming that is reductive)
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothesSo Ted Cruz was on The View today, and aside from promoting his newest book, he went and deflected most of the questions the hosts were acting and claiming that the people want to vote for a new supreme court person. Here's a link to an article and some You Tube videos with him, if interested:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-views-joy-behar-goes-at-it-with-ted-cruz-over-gops-covid-failures
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-2pCNiE-RU&ab_channel=TheView
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLvH3F17BhU&ab_channel=TheView
Arguments against taxes remind me of the "What have the Romans ever done for us"
skit from Monty Python.
Edited by Resileafs on Sep 28th 2020 at 3:26:56 PM
@ Draghinazzo
IMO the first point you bring up usually is a consequence of authoritarian leftism, of which taxes are only a symptom, than the taxes themselves. Which none of which the Democrats are anywhere near, whether it's the left-leaning Democrats who are anti-authoritarian or the right-leaning Democrats who are neoliberal.
Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 28th 2020 at 3:59:44 PM
I'm going to roll back the subject a bit. Never mind taxes, Purple Eyed Guma, do you have any issues that matter a lot to you? For me, a bisexual man, it's LGBTQ+ equality. I don't pretend to keep on top of every announcement, but I do know how Trump has appointed countless federal judges, including his latest Supreme Court Justice (not seated yet, but there's nothing short of an act of god that will keep her from the bench) who prevent people from marrying someone of the same gender. Meanwhile, while I don't have the details on hand, Biden has plans for advancement of our equality.
My musician page![]()
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I do not like that man Ted Cruz...
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 28th 2020 at 9:36:35 PM
We learn from history that we do not learn from history> I’m glad I can’t vote yet. I don’t know enough about either side to make a definitive choice—but I can say that they’re both incompetent.
>Trump plans to lower taxes, though, which is a point for him.
Do be wary of declaring both candidates have same the same flaws,because in the face of evidence they don't
Edited by Ultimatum on Sep 28th 2020 at 7:48:48 PM
have a listen and have a link to my discord serverPeople are responsible for doing the right thing themselves. They shouldn’t need to be told what the right thing is. If we keep getting poisoned rivers and corrupt businesses, it is our responsibility to do what we can about them. The federal government can’t magically fix all our problems.
I also 1000% support racial, gender, and LGBT equality. There’s really no real reason why they should be separated.
People shouldn't need to be told what the right thing is but unfortunately a lot of the time they need to be forced to do so, because they just don't care about what's right or not. Realistically the ability of the average person to do something about big-scale issues like climate change, corporate excesses, etc is quite limited. You need a bigger infrastructure and societal power to do that, which is why a government becomes necessary.
I don't see how private citizens (or even most local governments) have a chance against the people polluting their rivers. Because those are companies with a lot of money put into their legal and security teams.
And if you do support equality, then voting for the Republican party should be off the table entirely.
Edited by Rationalinsanity on Sep 28th 2020 at 4:51:56 PM
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.Perhaps not, but they are in the position to tell those who go out of their way to make things worse to stop doing that. Also, they have the ability to pool the resources needed to fix some of our problems paralleled only by those who don’t act in good faith.
My musician pageBut why must the two things be separated? It is our responsibility to fix things, why can’t we do that via the tool of the federal government? It’s how we fix other problems.
Many problem are to big to be fixed by just a handful of individuals, you need a large number of people working collectively, one way they do that is via some form of government.
Then I would suggest you look at candidates statements and promises on said issues. Biden is the one who pushed Obama to come out in favour of gay-marrige, while Trump has railed against the Supreme Court for granting LGBT people workplace protections and continues to try and implement a ban on transgender people serving in the military.
That’s before we get onto racial and gender inequality.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranWhich is an insufficient basis for government. People are not that responsible, and even if some people might be, then those bad faith actors aren't going to be stopped. You can't stop corporations from committing climate change, but the world's governments? If they want to, then yes they can, because of actually having sufficient leverage over businesses to do so.
Then there's the problem where individually people do something selfish that's, however, fine if nobody does it. It's the Tragedy of the Commons—you start with a functional resource everyone benefits from, and then a little bit of selfishness means nobody benefits. It applies to taxation (if everyone starts withholding taxes then suddenly there's nothing to pay for roads or schools) to shopping (guess what causes toilet paper shortages: everyone worrying there'll be a shortage and buying it up).
Then, thirdly, there's when you have incompatible notions of "doing the right thing" and "everyone is free to do what they want". This is where you get people citing their religious convictions as a basis for discrimination against minority groups again and again and again. You need a government to actually step in and stop discrimination.
That's not even getting into the rabbit hole where we have to define equality as equal treatment, equality of opportunity, or equality of outcomes. If everyone should be equal under the law, does that mean that the law should be completely unconcerned that this leaves the poor forever poor and in a bad position? That minorities can't escape from being an underclass because of limited access to resources? That's not equality in the end, is it?
IMO the first point you bring up usually is a consequence of authoritarian leftism, of which taxes are only a symptom, than the taxes themselves. None of which the Democrats are anywhere near, whether it's for the left-leaning Democrats' anti-authoritarianism or the right-leaning Democrats' neoliberalism.
Not at all, the people who talk about "government mismanagement" in the US have never lived under any kind of authoritarian leftist government. Rather they hold that position because of their fanatical belief in the universal superiority of the markets, which they implement in power by starving departments of funds, and then when those departments do poorly (as a consequence of the aforementioned fund starvation) they use it as evidence of their claim.
It's delusion and dishonesty all the way down.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangIt's also possible that government services can be simply mismanaged or be subject to corruption in the form of emblezzing and such. Though it should be noted that this is something that often happens in more laissez-faire right-wing governments. For example, to my recollection reagan's administration had a lot of corruption. So in a real way this is still a problem the people complaining are often creating themselves by voting for these politicians. "Republicans campaign on the government being a problem, and then they voted in so they can prove it by running it badly".
Edited by Draghinazzo on Sep 28th 2020 at 5:00:45 AM
@ Purple Eyed Guma
Even if you don't like taxes, the fact that you in your own words support 1000% support racial, gender, and LGBT equality should be enough reason to support Biden against Trump, considering Trump is openly anti-equality, has repeatedly fought against equality, and is empowering people who are actively trying to take rights away from minorities if not kill them outright. Besides, one of the more common criticisms of Biden other than that he's running on a message of pro-equal rights for everybody (how horrible!) is that he doesn't want to raise taxes enough.
Not to mention that, as Draghinazzo pointed out, historically the governments with the lowest taxes were among the most corrupt and wasteful with whatever tax dollars they collected.
And in this case, again, Trump is actively trying to hire the people who are trying to prevent people from doing the right thing themselves, by taking away our right to do the right thing, and making it so that it's only legal to do the wrong thing and anyone who doesn't gets punished for it.
Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 28th 2020 at 4:03:55 AM

Properly done, taxes are used to fund essential public services such as streets and roads, and ensuring that the sick and disabled are able to take care of themselves better. Cutting taxes is good when it's done to prevent unfair taxation (such as that which disproportionately targets the poor), but cutting taxes is a bad idea when critical services such as healthcare, food safety, education to combat homophobia and transphobia, and environmental protections are already severely underfunded. And guess which ones Trump is targeting.
Whether or not Biden and Trump are both incompetent, Trump is certainly malicious and already in the process of empowering individuals with an agenda to outright kill minorities.
Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 28th 2020 at 3:14:47 PM