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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#329426: Sep 28th 2020 at 2:25:25 AM

I mean, aren't libertarians (at least as defined in common American discourse) conservatives?

But you know that Lee Atwater quote about conservative strategy and how everything is basically increasingly esoteric ways to bring about their racial agenda without actually saying it? Because it's completely true and things like abortion only went from "weird Catholic issue" to "massive cultural wedge" because they could be used to rally a segregationist religious right-wing crowd without actually saying the first part.

By the way, thanks Phyllis Schlafly.

EDIT: Heck of a page topper I guess. Anyway, the Supreme Court will likely be resuming the role it has held for much of American history - the staunchest opponent of any sort of progress.

Edited by Balmung on Sep 28th 2020 at 4:26:43 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#329427: Sep 28th 2020 at 2:27:29 AM

Lolbertarians (at least in the USA) are really corporatists in disguise.

Disgusted, but not surprised
devak They call me.... Prophet Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
They call me.... Prophet
#329428: Sep 28th 2020 at 2:43:40 AM

Regarding how trump stays afloat, keep in mind that grifters see everyone else as sheep. Trump knew who Woodward was and yet thought he could beat him at his game. Various WH employees thought the same with Trump. And it works the same with trump's business:they keep loaning him money because they think they can play him. Trump in turn thinks he can play them.

tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#329429: Sep 28th 2020 at 4:38:00 AM

[up][up]Not really, at least in principle. A libertarian doesn't believe in regulation but they also don't believe in subsidizing corporations either. Of course practice is different from principal

Trump delenda est
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#329430: Sep 28th 2020 at 5:16:57 AM

A pure Libertarian would generally refuse to participate in the political process. Republican Libertarians are mainly wearing the hat as a sham.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#329431: Sep 28th 2020 at 5:23:04 AM

Libertarians are kind of split on that point in practice, but the "actual libertarians" do exist. Such libertarians don't believe in theocratic values (sometimes excepting abortion, which is a fissure point even in the LP proper), instead believing that government doesn't work and seeking to maximize negative freedom in all areas: right to bear arms, abolition of the War on Drugs and the prison-industrial complex, opposition to welfare of any kind, LGBT rights against the government but not against private employers, you get the idea.

Because they refuse to sign on to the cross-and-swastika attitude of the better-known lolbertarians, they're largely ignored by everyone. The only policy they have with broad appeal is knocking off the War on Drugs, and their approach to ending it (legalize the recreational use and sale of all drugs, up to and including heroin) is a no-go. Likewise, there was that one Oath Keeper back in the Minneapolis protests who wanted to arm and train the Black protestors, and got tossed out by the other Oath Keepers who were using "freedom" and "self-defense" as dog whistles.

[up]No. A pure Libertarian would vote for candidates who would agree to actually roll back the government. I don't get how you get the idea that not participating in the political process and passively accepting the government's actions is Libertarian.

Edited by Ramidel on Sep 28th 2020 at 4:23:57 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#329432: Sep 28th 2020 at 5:29:24 AM

There aren't any such candidates in most elections, though, and if they insist on integrity to their principles, they wouldn't vote for any non-Libertarian candidates. Sure, the actual Libertarian Party occasionally puts in a few contenders and usually runs a Presidential candidate, but the tiny number of votes they get is a strong indicator of the true strength of genuine Libertarianism in the U.S.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 28th 2020 at 8:29:42 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#329433: Sep 28th 2020 at 5:46:31 AM

Libertarians often get a surprising amount of Internetmentum before fizzling out in the end. See: Ron Paul 2012. So there's room to try to appeal to the moderates in the bunch.

More moderate libertarians, who understand that you've got to be able to sell your plan to the voters if you want to maximize negative freedom, tend to run on the Democratic side. They're the kind of people who backed Andrew Yang.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#329434: Sep 28th 2020 at 5:59:27 AM

Was just going to say, the IRL libertarians I know hold their nose and vote Democrat because while they don't like big government, welfare, or regulations, they hate bigotry, corporatism, and fascismnote  way more. Some of them can be annoying to be around due to their Principles Zealot beliefs, but they're alright compared to the likes of the fullblown right.

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 28th 2020 at 9:00:01 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#329435: Sep 28th 2020 at 6:08:47 AM

Is libertarianism the same as conservative-liberalism?

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#329436: Sep 28th 2020 at 6:12:48 AM

[up]

Not really - libertarianism (when espoused in honesty) tends to be socially liberal as well, while liberal-conservativism is... well... socially conservative.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#329437: Sep 28th 2020 at 6:13:06 AM

It's one step removed from anarcho-capitalism.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#329438: Sep 28th 2020 at 6:15:36 AM

[up] It depends - I have acquaintances who are moderate libertarians, i.e. "only as much government as necessary", which is vastly different from, say, libertarian Republican's attitude of "small enough to drown it in the bathtub".

Said acquaintances also plan to vote for Biden because as many issues as they may have with the Democratic Party as a whole, they firmly acknowledge that fascism is worse by bloody miles.

If you want an example of liberal-conservatism, look at the German CDU.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 28th 2020 at 3:17:55 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#329439: Sep 28th 2020 at 7:02:25 AM

US Libertarianism is closer to mainline European liberalism. Fewer regulations, both in the economic sphere, so economically neoliberal, but libertarians are also anti-racism, anti-sexism, and in theory very pro-LGBT, the idea being that people from all demographics should have equal access to opportunity and that big government is bad because it leads to institutional bigotry (although some of them don't realize that bigotry leaves ripple effects so big that big government is also necessary to correct for them).

Often the issue of LGBT rights is a good way of separating genuine believers in libertarian principles from the various flavors of right-authoritarian who pose as libertarians.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#329440: Sep 28th 2020 at 7:28:58 AM

Because they refuse to sign on to the cross-and-swastika attitude of the better-known lolbertarians, they're largely ignored by everyone. The only policy they have with broad appeal is knocking off the War on Drugs, and their approach to ending it (legalize the recreational use and sale of all drugs, up to and including heroin) is a no-go. Likewise, there was that one Oath Keeper back in the Minneapolis protests who wanted to arm and train the Black protestors, and got tossed out by the other Oath Keepers who were using "freedom" and "self-defense" as dog whistles.

Not really, people don't ignore them because they aren't racist. They're ignored because their proposed solutions are absolutely terrible at doing anything other than empowering wealthy men of the proper castes. Libertarians of all stripes have terrible theory and worse solutions, that some aren't really racist doesn't make the rest of their ideology any less horrible.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#329441: Sep 28th 2020 at 7:30:37 AM

Personally, I can't take the idea of libertarians seriously when they fight against regulations, when regulations are the only things preventing mega-corporations from destroying every livable habitat we have.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#329442: Sep 28th 2020 at 7:37:15 AM

Regarding how trump stays afloat, keep in mind that grifters see everyone else as sheep. Trump knew who Woodward was and yet thought he could beat him at his game. Various WH employees thought the same with Trump. And it works the same with trump's business:they keep loaning him money because they think they can play him. Trump in turn thinks he can play them.

There are three ironclad rules of the Fuck You, Got Mine philosophy (and one addendum).

  1. Everything is a competition. Everything. Even something as inconsequential as whether to eat at Burger King or Wendy's is a competition.
  2. In every competition, there is a winner and there are losers. There must always be losers for winners to exist. That is just the natural state of the universe.
  3. In every competition, I will always win. Always. Because I am the best player of the game, and if anyone has a problem with that, they should learn to play better.
  4. Addendum to #3: If I somehow lose, it can only be because somebody cheated.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 28th 2020 at 7:37:57 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Reflextion from a post-sanity world (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
#329443: Sep 28th 2020 at 7:39:38 AM

[up][up] One only needs to read up on the history of the 19th and early-20th century and lasseiz-faire (sp?) capitalism for proof of what happens when companies are allowed to operate with nobody who can tap them on the shoulder and say "Stop that shit." Or, for that matter, look at the current telecom and/or pharmaceutical industries.

[nja]

Edited by Reflextion on Sep 28th 2020 at 10:40:42 AM

Someone did tell me life was going to be this way.
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#329444: Sep 28th 2020 at 7:41:03 AM

[up][up]This explains Trump so well. How everything he's done is the best ever and anything that says otherwise is fake news. It's actually remarkable how tightly he holds to those rules.

Edited by Resileafs on Sep 28th 2020 at 10:41:12 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#329445: Sep 28th 2020 at 7:42:02 AM

Rarely do you see someone who subscribes to a Social/Economic/Political/Etc. Darwinist worldview that is also a good sport about losing. People like this type of ideology because it means they don't have to feel bad about leaving other people in the dust. They aren't actually in it for the sport of it; they just want to rationalize their own selfishness.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#329446: Sep 28th 2020 at 7:48:06 AM

Yeah, it's generally because "fuck you, I got mine" means they don't need to feel bad about others while they win. It's a post hoc worldview to explain why they deserve to win.

It's been fun.
Voltron64 Since: Jul, 2016
#329447: Sep 28th 2020 at 7:58:10 AM

Honestly if you live life by those rules, you deserve to lose by them.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#329448: Sep 28th 2020 at 8:00:29 AM

Original Position Fallacy in a nutshell. It's easy to go You Can't Make an Omelette... if you don't think you're the egg.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#329449: Sep 28th 2020 at 8:13:39 AM

The fuck you got mine people tend to be bifurcated between people who think that and profit immensely and those who think that and get their asses kicked brutally. There’s no like middle class of Social Darwinists who accept their brutalization with equanimity.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#329450: Sep 28th 2020 at 8:14:44 AM

[up][up]Or people who espouse Might Makes Right never consider what happens when they aren't the one with the might.

Edited by sgamer82 on Sep 28th 2020 at 8:15:10 AM


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