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raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#329251: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:08:42 PM

@ Raineh

I would bet that's the case, the matter of religion is also one of economical classes, with the lower ones tending to be the most religious in comparison to the upper strata so hearing a rich jackass flauting about his/her atheism is doubly annoying.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#329252: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:10:06 PM

Many of the "enlightened asshole atheists" definitely found a home in the alt-right, but I think a lot of leftists forget that argumentative atheists came to prominence when the Rick Santorums and Michele Bachmanns of the world were at the height of theirs as well. Every day was "Gay marriage can't be legal because God." It was hard to be polite in the face of that nonsense.

I think the flip side is that generally people who aren't religious aren't even likely to mention it or exhibit it in passing. Thus breeding the notion that the outspoken lot are representative.

Though I'm just perpetually agnostic. I think I just find them more irritating for often misusing science despite supposedly being more supportive of it.

[up] I wonder what the socio-economic breakdown of religion is across countries. Not really a US politics thing, though.

Edited by RainehDaze on Sep 26th 2020 at 4:11:21 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#329253: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:12:06 PM

You say that, sure, but atheists challenge something deep and personal within religious people: their certainty in a higher power. If you're being intellectually honest, you must admit to yourself that it's a contradiction. If your faith teaches that belief in the divine is the exclusive path to salvation, and you see someone who disavows all divinity, is it not the demand of your faith to convert them?

I'm a believer that salvation by faith alone is heretical and anti-Christian. It's a heresy of the American Christian fundamentalism that is fundamentally anti the values of Jesus. I remember when I told this to an atheist associate who was unaware that Christians could believe this and that it wasn't universal.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 26th 2020 at 8:12:42 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
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Lost in Space
#329254: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:13:27 PM

I'm a believer that salvation by faith alone is heretical and anti-Christian. It's a heresy of the American Christian fundamentalism that is fundamentally anti the values of Jesus.

That's good. We agree on something. Well, not the "salvation" part - I do not believe in an afterlife or an eternal soul, but I do believe in Hell: that being what we create for ourselves on Earth through our own actions.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 26th 2020 at 11:13:48 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#329255: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:17:58 PM

Hence, religion is becoming a tool of fascism because even Pope Francis is an isolated voice.

Religion is a tool that the conservative and powerful hide behind but it's always an uneasy alliance. For example, in Kentucky, Mitch tries to be the voice of Christianity but the only reason that the public outright isn't starving is the network and alliance of local churches.

The GOP loves megachurches that they give tax breaks to in exchange for big fat donations as well as mobilizing the base.

They HATE churches that defy their agenda be they minority churches, support for the poor, or protests against war or the environment.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
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i'm tired, my friend
#329256: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:31:10 PM

Let's be honest here: Christianity in America has been irreparably poisoned by decades of influence from the religious right, to the point where the only people who don't associate the word with a white, bible-thumping Heteronormative Crusader are either themselves Christian, or have a friend named Christian. It's frankly no wonder left-wing Christians don't shout it to the high heavens. Furthermore, I'd wager some of them are embarrassed about it to some degree, because of said association.

i'm tired, my friend
PresidentStalkeyes Eats moldy bread and flies into windows from United Kingdom of England-land Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Eats moldy bread and flies into windows
#329257: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:31:48 PM

I don't think it's a "which faith?" question, but a "is there faith?" question. It's worth noting that even in a climate of intense Islamophobia, most voters are more open to the idea of a Muslim president than an atheist one.

Would they also be open to the idea of a Buddhist president or a Hindu president? I'm actually genuinely curious now. :V

Those sell-by-dates won't stop me because I can't read!
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#329258: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:34:15 PM

For the record, the Catholic Church does not believe in the "faith alone for salvation" doctrine, which is considered heretical and contrary to the sacrament of Penitence and instead emphatises the need to act and believe at the same time. It also has accepted that people from other religions can also enter into Heaven if they were righteous in life after Vatican II.

@ Ramidel

On the matter of being left-wing and Christian. I admit this is kind of complicated, so I will start by the easy part and address this on my perspective as a Catholic because I seriously cannot speak for the other branches of Christianity, less the other Abrahamic faith or other religions.

While the sexual abuses committed to minors are reprehensible that must be addressed with all the weight of the law, I do believe that the Catholic Church is still a force of good overall between its work to aid people around the world, it's stance on the environmental protection and its teachings on economical responsibility for the poor. It requires a severe cleaning up but it's not something that I believe has to be written off.

Now, with that out of the way, let's tackle the complicated part.

The main reason why I think being left wing and being Catholic doesn't seem to be compatible and why people won't bring up their faith, despite the latter's advocacy for economical and social minorities, has much to do with sexual minorities which, generally speaking, are not on speaking terms with a lot of religious institutions due to various reasons, some that are legitimate and others that are up to discussion.

This is also one of the main differences that I can find in my region at the very least in comparison to the Global North. In the former, the Church's stance on aid to the poor and protection of nature is more known and thus is given more nuance while in the Global North the Church is mostly featured for its stance on LGTB rights.

Edited by raziel365 on Sep 26th 2020 at 8:35:14 AM

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
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Lost in Space
#329259: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:37:05 PM

There are certainly faiths that are fine with abortion, LGBT+ rights, the teaching of evolution in schools, contraception, freedom from religion, and so on. The Catholic Church is not one of them, making it a little hard to profess Catholicism as a Democrat without at least the awareness of the inherent hypocrisy.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#329260: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:39:20 PM

The catholic church has been fine with evolution for decades now as far as I'm aware so that bit is not accurate.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#329262: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:47:51 PM

Yup, evolution has been accepted for a long time and abortion is also accepted when it's to save the mother's life, though the Church's stance on the latter is also becoming more lenient as far as I remember. I honestly don't envy Pope Francis's job of having to address all of the issues the Church has with the Post-Modern world.

Edited by raziel365 on Sep 26th 2020 at 8:48:24 AM

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#329263: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:49:38 PM

It can't be that hard if the elected leaders of the party are Catholics.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#329264: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:51:18 PM

There are certainly faiths that are fine with abortion, LGBT+ rights, the teaching of evolution in schools, contraception, freedom from religion, and so on. The Catholic Church is not one of them, making it a little hard to profess Catholicism as a Democrat without at least the awareness of the inherent hypocrisy.

Where did you even get the idea that evolution wasn't supported by Catholicism?

Also, this is an argument for reforming the Catholic Church, not abandoning it.

Same with America.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 26th 2020 at 8:51:27 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#329265: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:53:16 PM

I feel like its important to mention that when a lot of ex christian atheists make claims about religion, they base it off of their experiences with christianity, rather than Judaism or other religions.

Straight up, I’ve seen ex christian atheists insist that “all religions” seek to convert people, while talking to a Jewish person. When like... Jewish people don’t do that shit at all?

In general, a lot of people from a christian background, whether they are christian or ex christian atheists, still look at things from a christian cultural point of view.

Edited by smokeycut on Sep 26th 2020 at 11:54:22 AM

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#329266: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:54:42 PM

the teaching of evolution in schools

Catholics are okay with that. Please don't conflate American fundamentalist Protestantism with Catholicism. The Catholic Church has many faults but they signed on to the evolution bandwagon.

(Of course, on the Protestant end, there's plenty of churches that are cool with all the things you mentioned. They just don't get much press.)

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#329267: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:55:00 PM

"Is Sanders an atheist? I know a lot of people speculate that he is, but what has he actually said on the matter.

I wouldn't care if he was or wasn't, but I've often gotten a kind of uncomfortable feel from the whole "he's just pretending not to be" line of thought."

Bernie occupies a niche that's unique to Jews because their community is bound together by either religion, culture, or both, because of their diaspora. Whether he's religious or not is sort of immaterial here — "unaffiliated Jew" can mean "cultural Jew," it can mean an observant Jew who doesn't participate in Jewish religious life, it can mean a crypto-atheist. That doesn't really matter, since his policy interests are really distant from religious life. The point is, for anyone for whom a prospective politician must acknowledge the existence of a deity, if only for the acknowledgement of an authority higher than secular authority, calling yourself a Jew — whatever you happen to think that means — will put them at ease, whereas "atheist" will not.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#329268: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:56:05 PM

@ Parable

I'm afraid you are severely underestimating how difficult it is to properly address theological debates without devolving into schisms.

Bear in mind that even though Pope Francis is head of the Church and is one of the most progressive Popes we had as of late, there are bishops who might break off from Rome over these issues and that's the last thing you want because you want all of the Church to move in the right direction.

Edited by raziel365 on Sep 26th 2020 at 8:56:34 AM

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#329269: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:57:42 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/03/athiesm-us-politics-2020-election-religious-beliefs

Huffman has stated he's a Humanist and is basically doing it to avoid saying atheist.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#329270: Sep 26th 2020 at 8:57:55 PM

For what it's worth, being raised Catholic in the northeast, I generally never met anyone for whom religion was a priority as a general concept. Anyone who thought that people ought to acknowledge a higher power was generally pretty firm on which specific higher power that ought to be.

It's been fun.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#329271: Sep 26th 2020 at 9:00:27 PM

That reminded me of Christopher Hitchens who talked about the central question of, "Is religion good?"

My reaction when I started reading his essay on that was, "Wait, which religion? All of them? I mean, there's some pretty big differences."

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#329272: Sep 26th 2020 at 9:03:56 PM

[up][up]So did I. It's, for the most part, always going to be a preference for a Christian. The hypothetical was if they were confronted with two candidates a religious one of any faith, or an atheist. An atheist was beaten by each one.

[up]Hitchen latched onto the Abrahamic religions because not only is the West steeped in them, their flaws are also more obvious and accessible to audiences. Buddhism and Hinduism are culturally distant from the Western experience, and both religions do their best to come off as victims of the encroachment of political Islam.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Sep 26th 2020 at 12:08:21 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
PresidentStalkeyes Eats moldy bread and flies into windows from United Kingdom of England-land Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Eats moldy bread and flies into windows
#329273: Sep 26th 2020 at 9:05:47 PM

feel like its important to mention that when a lot of ex christian atheists make claims about religion, they base it off of their experiences with christianity, rather than Judaism or other religions.

Straight up, I’ve seen ex christian atheists insist that “all religions” seek to convert people, while talking to a Jewish person. When like... Jewish people don’t do that shit at all?

Honestly, that's partly why I brought up Buddhism and Hinduism earlier on, along with Shinto, or Indigenous faiths, or Wicca, or basically any non-Abrahamic religion. In the West, it sometimes feels like these religions, if they're not ignored entirely, are thought of as 'not really religions', being considered more akin to lifestyle philosophies than anything. I'm sure cultural appropriation by new age snake oil salespeople hasn't helped. :V

(And before anyone points it out, yes, I'm well aware that sectarian violence and intolerance isn't exclusive to Abrahamic faiths, the point was more that Western perspectives on religion in general, either for or against, tends to be biased in a certain way)

Those sell-by-dates won't stop me because I can't read!
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#329274: Sep 26th 2020 at 9:09:51 PM

Hinduism and Buddhism are divorced from the Western experience. You have a small minority of Hindus in the US, with essentially zero cultural or political capital. It's hard to criticize the actions of a faith that most of your audience feels is completely alien to their own understanding,

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Sep 26th 2020 at 12:11:38 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

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