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TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#329126: Sep 26th 2020 at 12:50:50 PM

EDIT: Others said it better, this thread moves fast

Edited by TheAirman on Sep 26th 2020 at 2:51:28 PM

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
Kardavnil The Polisci Majoris from Sweden Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: In my bunk
The Polisci Majoris
#329127: Sep 26th 2020 at 12:51:26 PM

@Protagonist & Charles: Agreed. Humans have provided ample evidence that they don't need religion to justify evil actions, even on a societal level. Any powerful ideology/belief (religious, cultural, conspiratorial, etc.) will do. Or heck, as we've seen with Trump & co., sheer, unrestrained selfishness will also do fine to make people engage in authoritarianism. On the flipside, both atheism and various religious and cultural beliefs have also been used to encourage kind and selfless behaviour as well.

@Spartan: And that's really good news! As a swede, I've never understood any of the arguments for keeping the EC, and started really resenting it after 2016. Hopefully politicians notice and start acting accordingly.

Roll a Constitution saving throw to make it through the year.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#329128: Sep 26th 2020 at 12:52:47 PM

Actually, I'll correct myself: the electoral college is completely worthless as an institution where you have voting or the notion of parties.

Which means it has been worthless since the early 19th century when the population started voting for the president.

If you're not aiming for a democracy, then it may possibly work as intended. But it's fundamentally incompatible with one.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#329129: Sep 26th 2020 at 12:53:57 PM

Sure, if you say so.

I'll try not to doomsay about the end of American democracy.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 26th 2020 at 12:54:56 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#329130: Sep 26th 2020 at 12:56:25 PM

Given the entire counterargument is based on an idealised view of the purpose of the electoral college that was always disconnected from reality, and the vague idea that maybe it was useful against slavery—and honestly, that doesn't help; a bad system that produces a good result nearly 200 years ago is still a bad system—then yes, I do say so.

For all the times you've said you don't want to have this argument again, you really ought to stop starting your response with "If it worked properly then it would be good" because that means having to explain to people who don't understand the electoral college why it's a poor idea.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#329131: Sep 26th 2020 at 12:58:06 PM

Actually, allow me to ask, what do you hope to accomplish when I said I've ALREADY changed my mind?

The conservatives won, the GOP has destroyed the Electoral College and killed another democratic institution. It should be abolished because no one wants to fix it.

What else do you want me to say?

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 26th 2020 at 12:59:05 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#329132: Sep 26th 2020 at 12:59:02 PM

Yeah, I really don't see any reason for continuing to beat a dead horse there.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#329133: Sep 26th 2020 at 12:59:32 PM

I'm with that. Just drop it for goodness sake.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#329134: Sep 26th 2020 at 1:00:29 PM

Its done.

Do that state thing where all electoral votes go to the popular candidate.

Popular vote=Yay.

Go team.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#329135: Sep 26th 2020 at 1:03:50 PM

It’s worth pointing out that most states didn’t have electors decided by vote until the mid-1800s, when popular sentiment swung towards more direct democracy. Prior to that they were appointed by state legislatures. The Electoral College was never meant to be a “democratic institution”, its purpose was always to keep power out of the hands of the people.

Edit: we’re all dropping it so I’m dropping it. Didn’t see a few of those posts.

Edited by archonspeaks on Sep 26th 2020 at 1:07:03 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#329136: Sep 26th 2020 at 1:05:31 PM

I am reminded of some advice my father gave me "When you're winning an argument, try to stop arguing as soon as possible".

Leviticus 19:34
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#329137: Sep 26th 2020 at 1:09:26 PM

Oh, the Trump Supreme Court Justice pick isn't from the sect inspiring the Handmaid's Tale.

It's just ANOTHER fundamentalist Catholic reactionary organization that has a similar name.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 26th 2020 at 1:11:24 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#329138: Sep 26th 2020 at 1:18:36 PM

On Bill Maher: I am not a fan of militant atheists because they cause atheism in general to look aggressive and/or hostile when most atheists are seeking simple recognition as a demographic group. As a hard agnostic/soft atheist (depending on my mood and who's asking), I am not exactly fond of how religion has frequently been used as a shield or rationalization for awful acts, but I don't exclusively associate those things with religious faith, nor do I want to force people to change their beliefs. A person can believe whatever they like as long as they don't infringe on other people's rights.

However, we cannot ignore the roles of specific belief systems in damaging our democracy and causing direct harm to real people. For example: the Catholic Church's systematic abetting of sexual abuse by priests, the anti-women's/anti-LGBT+ rights agenda of American Evangelicals, the Creationist movement seeking to block the teaching of science in schools, and the Dominionist movement deliberately trying to tear down the U.S. political system.

I do not blame "people of faith" in general for these things, but I do believe that religious faith can create a vulnerability to toxic ideas by systematically encouraging people to suspend critical thinking and engage in magical thinking. It's a little like the "Not All Cops" meme, where people push back against charges of systemic evil by pointing out the non-evil among them.

Where I disagree with Maher is that he spreads his own form of toxicity by implying that one cannot be both religious and rational, religious and good, and so on. He takes it to the wrong extreme.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 26th 2020 at 4:21:13 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#329139: Sep 26th 2020 at 1:26:15 PM

And as far as Islam goes, as much as we have to protect Muslims from discrimination, it does no good to beat around the bush in saying, yes, a good lot of them, also in Western Society, are pretty socially conservative, particularly in terms of LGBT issues.

Addressing these issues is the first step to solving them.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#329140: Sep 26th 2020 at 1:33:20 PM

For some reason, the "Not all Religious People" argument gets really defensive when Islamic fundamentalism gets linked to violence and human rights abuses. Yes, I know Islam is a religion of peace. It says so right in the holy book. Doesn't mean people can't twist it into evil, just like any other culturally-ingrained belief system. Methinks thou doth protest too much.

Anyway, this is kind of off-topic. Just wanted to get it off my chest.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 26th 2020 at 4:33:44 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#329141: Sep 26th 2020 at 1:34:36 PM

I know I am way, way late, but just to give my two cents here: there's a big difference between, say, a Canadian or a European being all smug at the current state of US politics, and someone from, say, South America.

Because the US did do a lot, and I mean a lot, of horrible shit in here: the military dictatorship they helped take power here in Brazil was brutal, and comparetively we got it easy.

It didn't do anything comparable in Europe or Canada, they are just being assholes.

That all said, it's still wrong, or at least misguided, for anyone here to feel a karmic sense of satisfaction for the US' current situation, for two reasons:

  1. The people who are suffering the most there are gays, trans, blacks, poor, fellow Latines and their descendants, Arabs, Natives, people whose access to power was denied when those horrible things were done to us. While the people who are happy, thriving even, with the current situation, are the rich and the reactionaries. In other words, the very people who did do those things to us. It's hard to be satisfied with a situation like that because I would be cheering for the continued oppression of folks that have already been victimized in that country for decades, and in some cases centuries;

  2. The US losing its power on the international stage could be a cause for celebration...if the current alternative wasn't CCP controlled China. And as horrible as Trump is, and he is plenty, I can still go on Twitter and call him a tangerine wankmaggot who was shat out by his mom and not wake up the next day sleeping besides the decapitated bodies of my cats. Such isn't a guarantee with the CCP.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#329142: Sep 26th 2020 at 1:37:45 PM

That's a valid point, and one I've argued many times. People calling for the end of U.S. hegemony seem to be taking a rather rose-colored view of the world order that would follow. Do they really want Russia or China taking over that role?

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 26th 2020 at 4:38:05 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#329143: Sep 26th 2020 at 1:43:58 PM

For some reason, the "Not all Religious People" argument gets really defensive when Islamic fundamentalism gets linked to violence and human rights abuses. Yes, I know Islam is a religion of peace. It says so right in the holy book. Doesn't mean people can't twist it into evil, just like any other culturally-ingrained belief system. Methinks thou doth protest too much.

Anyway, this is kind of off-topic. Just wanted to get it off my chest.

Perception of Islam in the United States is an important issue actually as it actually relates to an extent to how the United States treats its cultural identity as well as "us vs. them." The big thing about Bill Maher's bigotry against Islam is the fact that it not only is it applied as a view of what qualifies as a "Real American" but it's also based on a fundamentally staggering amount of ignorance.

Ben Affleck and Bill Maher had several dust ups online about Islam but the big thing is that Bill had no idea what he's talking about. Bill Maher for example is seemingly ignorant that Muslims compromise a billion people in the world or are anything other than Afgahinarabia. He envisions them as a primitive bunch of people living in a desert.

Because he's a racist and ignorant but thinks he's smart.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 26th 2020 at 1:53:35 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#329144: Sep 26th 2020 at 1:52:27 PM

Honestly, the rise of the CCP and its abysmal track record on the human rights department is part of the reason why I stopped harping on the USA with the vitriol I once had. I can't cheer for an usonian downfall when something even worse is waiting around the corner.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#329145: Sep 26th 2020 at 1:56:19 PM

[up][up] It is possible for both facts to be true simultaneously: There is bigotry against Islam in the U.S. (and Europe) and Islam around the world is associated with fundamentalist violence, just as it is possible for there to be minority criminals and prejudice against minorities, abusive cops and hatred for police, etc.

Insisting on a black and white approach trips up many, including and especially Maher.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#329146: Sep 26th 2020 at 1:59:09 PM

You seem to be taking it very personally when people critcize the state you hail from. Not you. Just the state you happen to be from. Why is that?

Like, I don't want to armchair psychologist anyone, but the defensive way you react to any non-USA criticism of the USA really comes across as though you think people are criticising you personally, and you have to know that's not true, right?

I'm jumping back to this because I was too upset to answer at the time.

Here's the thing. I know full well what a trash fire America is. I see Republican fuckery happening all over the country the same as you do. I've seen more videos of police strongarming protesters and journalist and even bystanders than I ever want to again. I know how Governor Whatshisface of Florida is completely opening the state up because fuck you, that's why. I saw a cop car with a damn Punisher logo outside my apartment. Now I have to worry about the possibility of running into that asshole.

So when people in other countries say shit like "I pity you Americans," it just feels like rubbing salt in the wound. Like, "Gee, thanks for your support. You being kinda bummed about how miserable I am is so moving." Seriously, how am I supposed to feel about that?

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Sep 26th 2020 at 4:59:46 AM

i'm tired, my friend
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#329147: Sep 26th 2020 at 2:07:50 PM

It is possible for both facts to be true simultaneously: There is bigotry against Islam in the U.S. (and Europe) and Islam around the world is associated with fundamentalist violence, just as it is possible for there to be minority criminals and prejudice against minorities, abusive cops and hatred for police, etc.

Insisting on a black and white approach trips up many, including and especially Maher.

My point being that claiming Islam is a violent oppressive religion when those are such a tiny minority of its members is shockingly ignorant. It's claiming Timothy Mc Veigh is representative of Americans.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#329149: Sep 26th 2020 at 2:11:45 PM

[up][up] It's not just about those that are actually violent. It's also about the socially conservative portion of them.

I mean, if you look at it like this, how many of the Christian Right are actually violent? They are mostly just blowhards who spout a lot of hate, even the most extreme of them like the Westboro Baptist Church.

Rhetoric and mindset like that is a problem too, even without any direct violence.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#329150: Sep 26th 2020 at 2:14:37 PM

[up][up] Wonder how fast Senate Republicans are going to ram her through.


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