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GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#329076: Sep 26th 2020 at 9:43:50 AM

No, that's mainly how you choose to interpret it.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#329077: Sep 26th 2020 at 9:51:39 AM

Sure.

i'm tired, my friend
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#329078: Sep 26th 2020 at 9:52:31 AM

Yeah, saying "pity is just Condescending Compassion" gives the impression that the speaker has pride issues.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#329079: Sep 26th 2020 at 9:55:33 AM

Other than watch in horror and offer moral support, what can we actually do?

Keeping in mind that total opposition to Trump is not an option for countries that value their economies and military alliances. And that we more or less all have populist issues of our own to counter.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#329080: Sep 26th 2020 at 9:57:04 AM

[up][up]You might have issues too if your country was a global fucking laughingstock.

i'm tired, my friend
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#329081: Sep 26th 2020 at 10:06:14 AM

And yet it is still the most powerful country in the world.

I'd say other countries have it worse.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#329082: Sep 26th 2020 at 10:10:13 AM

@ Charles: I think you're spot on. Maher is exactly like how conservatives (and arguably even some centrists) think liberals are.

Which is rather ironic, since that is the same stereotypical liberal he tends to rail against...

I think superhero movies do help create a culture of vigilantism and glorification of violence and militarism, but I don't think that's what Maher means.

@ Kardavnil: You miss the point about conservatives hating Disney because they strive for diversity: they hate that because they want to appropriate those movies for their own white supremacist ends. Which is why it is doubly good that Disney is pushing for more representation.

About Trump running the country like a reality show, I have to admit that it felt like that too to me the first few years. It was actually kind of addictive reading all the news stories about him.

[up] Militarily? Sure. Culturally? Perhaps. Politically? Not quite so much any more. Morally? Quickly sliding down.

Being the most powerful isn't just about military might. Soft power is just as important, and that is where the US is really hurting right now.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 26th 2020 at 7:29:04 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
PresidentStalkeyes Eats moldy bread and flies into windows from United Kingdom of England-land Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Eats moldy bread and flies into windows
#329083: Sep 26th 2020 at 10:28:03 AM

[up]I wonder if those same conservatives are the ones who champion how great capitalism is, as they rail against large media corporations for using diversity as a selling point - and succeeding - while they also accept government bailouts to save their failing, unfashionable businesses. :V

Those sell-by-dates won't stop me because I can't read!
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#329084: Sep 26th 2020 at 10:28:25 AM

[up][up][up][up]

I'm from the Western Third World, my country is already a laughing stock by default.

Edited by raziel365 on Sep 26th 2020 at 10:28:34 AM

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#329085: Sep 26th 2020 at 10:30:31 AM

And yet it is still the most powerful country in the world.

Oh goody, power. That just makes everything better, doesn't it? The police in many cities have become full-blown fascists, shootings are as common as rainfall, a political party hellbent on letting Americans die to make its figurehead look good, and a president floating the idea of stealing an upcoming election, but at least we have more power than any other nation on Earth! WOOOO!

Gimme a break. "Most powerful," so fucking what?

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Sep 26th 2020 at 1:33:03 PM

i'm tired, my friend
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#329086: Sep 26th 2020 at 10:35:44 AM

You seem to be taking it very personally when people critcize the state you hail from. Not you. Just the state you happen to be from. Why is that?

Like, I don't want to armchair psychologist anyone, but the defensive way you react to any non-USA criticism of the USA really comes across as though you think people are criticising you personally, and you have to know that's not true, right?

Edited by GoldenKaos on Sep 26th 2020 at 6:40:48 PM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#329087: Sep 26th 2020 at 10:45:12 AM

"Most powerful country" also gets a rather darker undertone when a good third of the country is racing towards becoming full blown fascists.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
astrokitty Happiness is a cup of tea from Somewhere Out There Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Happiness is a cup of tea
#329088: Sep 26th 2020 at 10:52:46 AM

Honestly, if this godforsaken country is barrelling towards facism, should it really be "the most powerful country"?

Somebody once told me the world was macaroni, I took a bite out of a tree
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#329089: Sep 26th 2020 at 10:53:05 AM

Sure the US is the most powerful country in the world and other countries have it worse, but that's cold comfort to the people shot by the cops or people who lost their job and health insurance due to Covid-19.

PresidentStalkeyes Eats moldy bread and flies into windows from United Kingdom of England-land Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Eats moldy bread and flies into windows
#329090: Sep 26th 2020 at 10:55:08 AM

I mean, as has already been alluded to, the US' international standing may very well greatly weaken as a result of all this, even if Trump loses. And being militarily powerful isn't enough, as North Korea can attest to. :V

Edited by PresidentStalkeyes on Sep 26th 2020 at 6:55:34 PM

Those sell-by-dates won't stop me because I can't read!
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#329091: Sep 26th 2020 at 10:58:52 AM

@astro, Considering the competition (China, Russia) is even worse and that the American public still has a chance to reject authoritarianism, yes.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Alycus Since: Apr, 2018
#329092: Sep 26th 2020 at 10:59:03 AM

You know, here might be shocker, but people who judge America probably aren't always like immediately right and more credible than right wing nationalists. For example, I've seen quite a few people here in Southeast Asia who don't even know what the Republican or Democrat parties are, who think all of America's problems would be solved if they just became an "efficient dictatorship" like China. As it turns out, people who mock America can also turn out to be fucking idiots.

Edited by Alycus on Sep 26th 2020 at 11:04:04 AM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#329093: Sep 26th 2020 at 11:03:11 AM

@Golden Kaos Actually, in a health class I took once, it noted something it called a "Voodoo attack".

The example it gave is if I write someone's name on a chalkboard, and then spit on it, that person might feel offended. However, I technically made no attack on them. A more specific example of what it was giving was how talking ill of a person's hobbies or things they like will tend to offend them for basically the same reason.

Also, with the US, it isn't just a government but a cultural identity. Also, given that it's an elected government...

Now, personally I'm not especially annoyed by pity toward the state of the US right now, as I think it's...well it's pitiable. Though truth be told I don't see it as the norm, nor do I see the people running it as especially "American". I mean, they're pawns of Russia, Nazis, and Confederate-wannabes, which are historical enemies of the United States. As it turns out, letting your nation's enemies run your country is a bad idea. Who knew?

I'm a little more annoyed by people who say they feel it to be some kind of karma and are happy about it. For one: The people who are suffering because of it are not the people responsible for whatever problems the US has caused for other countries. Secondly, if it's wrong when the US does it, it's wrong when other nations do it to the US. Thirdly, it's not like Putin's gonna stop with the US.

Leviticus 19:34
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#329094: Sep 26th 2020 at 11:17:29 AM

I'm no expert on Bill Maher, but afair he opposes religion as a concept, he was never racist against any minorities directly.

This is not correct.

You cannot separate Islamophobia from racism, especially not his.

In a May 2010 interview with Anderson Cooper, Maher described Muslims as “threatening,” “bringing that desert stuff to our world,” and uncivilized. Cooper asked Maher if he bought the claim by Muslims that Islam is a religion of peace; Maher responded, “Yeah they blow you up, there’s a piece of you over there, there’s a piece of you over there, there’s a piece of you over there.”

...

In September 2015, Maher reacted to the arrest of 14-year old American-Muslim student, Ahmed Mohamed, after he brought a homemade clock to school that his teacher thought was a bomb. Politicians and public figures criticized the incident, calling it racial and religious profiling. Maher said: “Look, this kid deserves an apology. No doubt about it. They were wrong, but…for the last 30 years, it’s been one culture that has been blowing shit up over and over again.”

...

In response to a study finding that “Muhammad” was the most popular baby name in Great Britain, Maher stated: “Am I racist to feel I am by that because I am,” and “I don’t have to apologize do I for not wanting the western world to be taken over by Islam.”

And this is just the bigotry that jumped out to me. He's absolutely hateful towards Muslims and that hate takes a racial tinge.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Kardavnil The Polisci Majoris from Sweden Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: In my bunk
The Polisci Majoris
#329095: Sep 26th 2020 at 11:18:42 AM

@Redmess: I don't really see how our perspectives clash here. I just said that they (conservatives) hate Disney movies (and any other movies which acknowledge that non-white straight cis males exist). And yeah, part of it is probably because they'd want to use them for their own ends. Although, I personally think another part of it is just that they find diversity, in and of itself, offensive.

[up] Yeah...if that's not straight-up racist Islamophobia in action, I don't know what is...

Also, saying in a 2015 interview that they (ie Muslims) have been "blowing things up" for 30 years? Like, even if we assume he was just clumsily referring to islamic terror groups like al-Qaeda (probably giving him too much credit, but let's say it anyway for the sake of argument), wut? Was he asleep during The Troubles? Or you know, any other conflict going on from 1985 onwards? Plus, wasn't al-Qaeda’s first real terror attack against a target in the western world 9/11? In which case, he's off by about 20 years. So, in addition to being racist, he's also a badly-read idiot...

Edited by Kardavnil on Sep 26th 2020 at 11:28:53 AM

Roll a Constitution saving throw to make it through the year.
Alycus Since: Apr, 2018
#329096: Sep 26th 2020 at 11:23:41 AM

@Protagonist I can't agree with the idea of treating Trump and his enablers like foreign enemies, as it feels like No True Scotsman. The current situation is the culmination of the hard right swing of the Republican party since Reagan, political polarization since Obama's time, and racial problems that go back centuries. They certainly are American in the sense that they fully believe they represent "real America" and half the country still votes for them, and considering that the Eagleland stereotype is far more well-known than the liberal flipside even though it's arguably just as common, the world believes the same.

But yes, you nailed why people who think this is karma for America is…just acting on emotion, to put it kindly.

Edited by Alycus on Sep 26th 2020 at 11:24:45 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#329097: Sep 26th 2020 at 11:28:29 AM

[up][up] Not clashing so much, but I think there's more to it than what you said.

[up] Agreed, Trump is an American, and a product of America. There is no denying that.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 26th 2020 at 8:29:09 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Kardavnil The Polisci Majoris from Sweden Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: In my bunk
The Polisci Majoris
#329098: Sep 26th 2020 at 11:36:13 AM

[up][up] I mean, you can both recognize that it's a culmination of domestic decelopments, and note that it was helped along by foreign actors. The two parts intersect, interact and reinforce one another.

But yeah, hating americans as a whole won't solve anything, and is grossly unfair to the many americans who don't want anything to do and/or suffer from what the trumpeteers and other conservative/alt-right movements have done to the country.

[up] Ah, I see, fair enough.

Roll a Constitution saving throw to make it through the year.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#329099: Sep 26th 2020 at 11:44:11 AM

Maher is akin to the colonialists who thought of other cultures as 'uncivilized' and needing to be converted from their "backwards" religion. It's just that in his case, the 'faith' (or lack thereof, as it were) he wants to spread is Atheism.

Basically, he views religion as a trait of "backwards savages" and believes they need to be brought into "Western Materialism".

Him hating Christianity too doesn't change the fact that he's a bigot, it's simply another bigotry on top of others. He considers religion an actual mental illness that needs to be destroyed in order for humanity to survive.

Personally, aside from pointing out the bigotry angle, I'd counter his opinion by pointing out that many of history's worst monsters were not specifically motivated by religion. Namely: Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Ghengis Khan, Napoleon Bonaparte, Mao Zedong.

@Alycus

It's a little bit of a No True Scotsman, but I will point out they are literally appropriating the symbols of America's enemies, so there's that to consider. I'm not saying they are entirely or even mostly products of foreign influence (especially the Neo-Confederates, which are American in the way that Cancer Cells are Human Body Cells), but more that they're not as "American" in a vague sense as they think they are.

Mind you, I'll clarify that I'm not saying that I think this will change the opinions of the people I was addressing, just saying why I myself find it relatively easy to be apathetic to their opinion.

Leviticus 19:34
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#329100: Sep 26th 2020 at 11:51:00 AM

Without getting too much into this kind of discussion, I think there is a difference between being a terrible person as well as an atheist and being a terrible person because of being an atheist.

Stalin f.e. was simply a paranoid, power-hungry fuck, he did not kill people because of his atheistic worldview, which is why I always find it rather exhausting when people draw this card while trying to defend religious fundamentalists (who specifically do kill because of their religious worldview).

That is not to say that the above latter kind of people don't exist off course, see the modern chinese government.

Edited by Forenperser on Sep 26th 2020 at 8:51:17 PM

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