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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#328651: Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:05:53 PM

Hillary Clinton lost for a lot of factors. Not the least was the ratfuckery of James Comey, aided and abetted by the media. That's not happening this time. Biden is outperforming her in the polls enormously.

We're not talking about a tiny percentage of voters in key states flipping here. Trump was elected not because he's some cunning mastermind but because a bunch of bad and unlikely things happened all at once.

Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:06:23 AM

XMenMutant22 The Feline Follies of Felix the Cat Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#328652: Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:06:05 PM

The first one is moderated by Fox News, right? Topic'll probably be something like "Why Joe Biden wants to destroy America and only Donald Trump can save it."

Nah, as people have mentioned earlier, Chris Wallace is one of the sanest journalists from FOX News (which helps that he used to work at NBC Nightly News prior). He was the same journalist who ended up grilling Trump on his cognitive test boasting weeks ago.

According to Deadline, Wallace has selected six topics he'll ask the two candidates (not necessarily in order):

  • Trump and Biden records
  • The Supreme Court
  • COVID-19
  • Race and violence in our cities
  • The integrity of the election
  • The Economy

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#328653: Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:06:33 PM

Let's not get into repeating the 2016 election,that won't happen this time,its a different candidate they're up against, don't expect the same result even if its same tactics are used

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#328654: Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:12:12 PM

Can't said Governor just veto any GOP fuckery that slips in between now and November?

If they pass a law sure, but it’s not clear that they’d need to do that, the suggestion is an 1876 style situation where they try and invalidated Biden’s electors by appointing their own.

The solution to that may well be the use of force, if said electors know that by participating in the coup they will spend the rest of their life in prison than it might well deter them, or they could just be put in cells before they get the chance to cast their false votes.

Edited by Silasw on Sep 23rd 2020 at 11:12:52 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#328655: Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:12:47 PM

[up]x6

Can't said Governor just veto any GOP fuckery that slips in between now and November?

Yes; 5 of the 6 most important Swing States (Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona and North Carolina) have Democrats somewhere who can tell the Republican Legislature to go Screw themselves if they try to pull any Elector nonsense (4 have Democratic Governors, 1 has a Democratic Secretary of State who can literally defy the Governor's Wishes if they're Unconstitutional, which they would be). Only Florida could they successfully pull this stunt.

I'm currently not worried about State Governments attempting to pick Electors that only care about the Republican Party; it'd require too many States to effectively pull off. The most important things to focus on right now are the Supreme Court fight and Nov. 3rd.

Edited by DingoWalley1 on Sep 23rd 2020 at 7:27:58 AM

nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#328656: Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:19:48 PM

Didn't the Supreme Court rule against faithless electors recently?

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#328657: Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:23:16 PM

I lost faith in the Electoral College with that. If an Elector can't vote against a monster like Trump then there's no point in having an Elector.

You might as well go with a popular vote.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:23:33 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#328658: Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:35:20 PM

[up] Which is why we've been having people want the electoral college abolished. It's undemocratic by nature.

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#328659: Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:37:54 PM

The ruling was that electors have to follow the law of their specific state, but I don’t think they touched on the idea of competing claims for the legitimacy of electors.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#328660: Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:47:31 PM

Maybe someone should make an Electoral College thread.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:48:54 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#328661: Sep 23rd 2020 at 5:02:57 PM

[up][up]And laws won't change without the Governor in question signing the bill. To say nothing of starting the legislative process so soon, and massive public backlash leading to potentially irrevocable results.

The GOP wants to prepare to contest another 2000 scenario, maybe a 2016 repeat in reverse (narrow Biden win across just enough swing states). If Biden wins by 2008 or 2012 levels, that's too many states to coordinate. And if by some unholy miracle they do get it, they are begging for an outright uprising if not intervention by the National Guard and co.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Sep 23rd 2020 at 9:03:23 AM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#328662: Sep 23rd 2020 at 5:17:29 PM

2000 had a ton of factors involve: Butterfly ballots, Ralph Nader, a whackjob Secretary of State who was also W's campaign manager (!!!!), Bush's brother being in charge of the key state, the Brooks Brothers Riot. There's nothing to suggest any of this is repeatable.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#328663: Sep 23rd 2020 at 5:23:56 PM

Nope. If this campaign resembles a past one, its 2008. With the Republicans largely behind and unpopular, the Dems doing very well the previous Midterm, and people still believing that the Democrat will lose.

Well, 2008 if McCain was replaced by a lawless psychopath/incumbent.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#328664: Sep 23rd 2020 at 5:35:40 PM

I think those topics for the debate are all fine, really. They are good and relevant topics that both candidates should have an opinion on, and I think Biden can easily score on at least a few of them.

Yes, the topic on violence is a bit provocatively named, but on the other hand, it is an important topic right now, and absolutely needs to be part of the debate. Biden has to have an opinion on this and show it, so I'm okay with it being a topic.

I don't think the list of topics is particularly biased against either candidate.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 23rd 2020 at 2:36:23 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
AngrokVa indighost from america, unfortunately Since: Feb, 2012 Relationship Status: Saddled with unnecessary feelings
indighost
#328665: Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:00:06 PM

For fuck's sake... From Vanity Fair, The Trump Campaign Is Reportedly Plotting An Election Coup to "Bypass a Biden Win

Donald Trump has been throwing everything he's got at the 2020 election to ensure a favorable result or otherwise undermine the outcome: Sowing doubt in the legitimacy of mail-in ballots. Screwing with the Postal Service that will handle them. Trying to recruit "law enforcement" as poll watchers. Flirting with delaying the election and openly stating that he won't accept any results he doesn't like.

Now the Trump campaign is said to be considering another, even more outrageous approach: In a thorough and deeply disconcerting piece about the constitutional crisis that may await us between November 3 and the inauguration in January, the Atlantic's Barton Gellman reports that the Trump campaign has been discussing "contingency plans to bypass the election results and appoint local electors in battleground states where Republicans hold the legislative majority." Citing the president's baseless claims of fraud, Team Trump could ask GOP-controlled state governments to choose electors, completely ignoring an unfavorable or uncertain popular vote, state and national Republican sources told Gellman.

"The state legislatures will say, 'All right, we've been given this constitutional power,'" a Trump campaign legal adviser explained to the Atlantic. "'We don't think the results of our own state are accurate, so here's our slate of electors that we think properly reflect the results of our state.'"

Does completely ignoring the will of the voters seem anti-democratic? Unconstitutional? Impossible? One would think. But as Gellman points out, however authoritarian this kind of end-around may seem, the Constitution doesn't forbid such a move, and it's something the Trump campaign could pull off. Indeed, state Republican leaders have already casually indicated that they'd be all too happy to enable this kind of power grab. "I've mentioned it to them, and I hope they're thinking about it too," Lawrence Tabas, chairman of the Republican Party in Pennsylvania, one of the swing states on which the 2020 race could hinge, told Gellman. "It is one of the available legal options set forth in the constitution."

Disturbing as the prospect of bypassing the popular vote in GOP-controlled battlegrounds may be, it's but one of several vulnerabilities in the electoral system Trump and his flunkies are trying to exploit this fall, ranging from complex legal fights to declaring absentee ballots fraudulent before they've even been processed to the possibility - likelihood? - that the president will simply pronounce himself the winner before all votes are tallied. While Joe Biden and the Democrats are sounding increasingly loud alarms, it remains frustratingly unclear what they can do to prevent the country from plummeting into this looming crisis. A quick and overwhelming Biden victory would certainly help matters, but it's a tough proposition: While the Democrat retains a strong lead over his counterpart nationally, polls suggest the two are locked in tight races in several key states like Georgia, Iowa, Florida, and Arizona. The idea that typically deep-red states like Texas and Georgia are in play for Biden would seem to reflect the president's challenging reelection prospects - but those states all are controlled by Republican-majority legislatures, creating just the opening Trump needs to call the votes bogus and appoint electors that will decide in his favor.

This is a dire scenario, and one that could be upon us in a little over a month. The normal campaign fare of stump speeches and debate performances and policy rollouts may help Biden win election over the unpopular Trump - but establishing the legitimacy of that victory and actually taking office is another story. That, it seems, might require an unprecedented fight against a barrage of dirty tricks for which there's no easy defense.

Thoughts?

Blueeyedrat Since: Oct, 2010
#328666: Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:03:56 PM

Thoughts?

Pretty much the same as my thoughts on all of the administration's other legal chicanery: they can't actually do it, but it's not going to be for lack of trying, which is why it's still a problem.

AngrokVa indighost from america, unfortunately Since: Feb, 2012 Relationship Status: Saddled with unnecessary feelings
indighost
#328667: Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:06:45 PM

Right. And I see that Septimus already put up that article a page earlier, or at least a similar one. That's what I get for page-hopping, lol.

But, yeah, I feel if there's enough of us out there voting, we may be able to have this "coup" blow up in the GOP's dumb faces.

Edited by AngrokVa on Sep 23rd 2020 at 9:07:16 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#328668: Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:22:49 PM

Whelp, and just when we put the coup thing to bed...

Wait, the constitution doesn't forbid a coup? That doesn't make sense.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 23rd 2020 at 3:25:16 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Codafett Knows-Many-Things Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Knows-Many-Things
#328669: Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:26:43 PM

Put that on the list of laws they should probably look at after this.

Just Having Fun
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#328670: Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:28:45 PM

The states can decide how their electors are distributed basically however they damn well please. Same logic as the NVIC.

On the other hand, there's enough election-related amendments and stuff that trying to discard the votes entirely is probably unconstitutional.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#328671: Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:32:10 PM

So basically all our worst fears about Trump and this election are coming true, then. Or did we forget about something?

Oh yes, he could start a war to boost his numbers. At least that hasn't happened yet.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#328672: Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:33:28 PM

We were just talking about this, and I'm just gonna quote myself now:

5 of the 6 most important Swing States (Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona and North Carolina) have Democrats somewhere who can tell the Republican Legislature to go Screw themselves if they try to pull any Elector nonsense (4 have Democratic Governors, 1 has a Democratic Secretary of State who can literally defy the Governor's Wishes if they're Unconstitutional, which they would be). Only Florida could they successfully pull this stunt.

I'm currently not worried about State Governments attempting to pick Electors that only care about the Republican Party; it'd require too many States to effectively pull off. The most important things to focus on right now are the Supreme Court fight and Nov. 3rd.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#328673: Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:34:43 PM

The biggest problem is the number of things in the US government that rely on unwritten rules and the honour system to work. When people start ignoring those unwritten rules things start to get worse.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#328674: Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:39:32 PM

I mean, these rules are written. Repeatedly.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#328675: Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:52:15 PM

[up]X3 Thing is the governors need to be willing to stop Republicans pulling elector shenanigans by force, because if they can do something in a formal setting they then have something to pass onto Republicans in Congress.

My concern isn’t that this can’t be stopped, it’s that Democrat governors aren’t willing to arrest Republican legislatures for attempting a coup.

[up]X4 A war needs either another nation willing to escalate or the military to not loose the paperwork on a war of naked aggression, neither of which seems likely.

Also we don’t have confirmation that state level Republicans are willing to do, just that the ones in Pennsylvania are considering it.

Edited by Silasw on Sep 23rd 2020 at 1:53:16 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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