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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#328301: Sep 21st 2020 at 7:35:16 PM

[up]x3 The problem is they can only cheat because people agree with their methods and messages. No, you're not voting in these people, nor are many people in these States doing that... The problem is many more people are because they agree with the Republicans main messages: Rich people are Gods and Non-Whites will ruin the Country, and they are just as willing to get rid of Democracy for those principles as the people they vote in.

[down] In Rural Communities? Heck yes. In Urban Communities? No, but even if you did fix this problem, the Rural Communities will still lord over them.

Edited by DingoWalley1 on Sep 21st 2020 at 10:36:23 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#328302: Sep 21st 2020 at 7:35:23 PM

Seconded, how is it the democrats fault that the Republicans are votes in thise states?

Serious question, are you actually telling me people believe Republicans are winning the elections in rural states fairly?

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 21st 2020 at 7:36:52 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#328303: Sep 21st 2020 at 7:37:17 PM

It's almost like one of the things Democrats want to pass is new legislation regarding voting rights but they need to be elected federally to do that, because they're not being elected locally to address the Republicans.

Imagine that, needing to be elected to do something.

It's like people complaining endlessly that the Opposition in Parliament isn't stopping the government from doing stuff. Fucking hell...

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#328304: Sep 21st 2020 at 7:39:48 PM

Chareles is right to a point - rural doesn't necessarily equal "white", at least not in the context of the Deep South. But if the argument is most white rural voters aren't voting for Republicans, I'm pretty sure that's just flat out contradicted by most data.

nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#328305: Sep 21st 2020 at 7:43:42 PM

Serious question, are you actually telling me people believe Republicans are winning the elections in rural states fairly?

How is that Democrats leaving red state voters to die, though?

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#328306: Sep 21st 2020 at 7:48:18 PM

Does Biden have any plans for those rural voters and other Republican voters? Things like creating jobs and solving the decline of the rust belt? How will he reach out to the average Republican voter? I don't mean the rabid fascists, just the casual Republican voter who votes because he believes Democrats have forgotten about people like them (and not entirely without justification).

Because Biden will be president of all Americans, not just Democrats. We always criticize Trump for not caring about Democratic voters, so it stands to reason we hold Biden to the same standards in the other direction.

[up] I can sort of understand that feeling among Republicans. It must be galling to be a Republican living in a red state and have Democrats treat you like you don't exist and your concerns don't matter because your state doesn't matter electorally.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 21st 2020 at 4:50:37 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#328307: Sep 21st 2020 at 7:50:37 PM

Trump doesn't care about any voters, he's just marginally more likely to throw Democrat areas under the bus for political advantage (including by making Democrats look bad).

[up] I can sort of understand that feeling among Republicans. It must be galling to live in a red state and have Democrats treat you like you don't exist and your concerns don't matter because your state doesn't matter electorally.

We're repeating Republican propaganda now?

Go find any party that is idiotic enough to actively campaign where it can't win in a national election. You know, given that obviously small states matter because of the bloody Senate.

Edited by RainehDaze on Sep 21st 2020 at 3:51:52 PM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#328308: Sep 21st 2020 at 7:51:08 PM

Sure, sure, but the question was about Biden.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#328309: Sep 21st 2020 at 7:53:33 PM

I dunno, look in here. I assume that these things will also help rural voters. Particularly in the infrastructure and energy sections.

Unless you're labouring under the bizarre impression that there are extra special plans needed.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#328310: Sep 21st 2020 at 7:53:37 PM

Murcs Law strikes again.

I'm hesitant to bring this up (yeah, I know this sounds like a Suspiciously Specific Denial), because I think (hope) Charles has changed his mind on this, but I'm never going to not remember that Charles supported or supports the electoral college out of a belief that rural voters deserve more of a voice in politics than urban ones.

Which even if I'm charitable in granting that rural isn't inherently the same as white conservative, even if it is in practice, is still a pretty iffy belief.

@ Redmess - Yes. Biden does have what I would consider rural-geared policies, aimed at helping farmers. [nja] Also, if you are asking sincerely, why are you assuming he doesn't?

Edited by Hodor2 on Sep 21st 2020 at 9:54:10 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#328311: Sep 21st 2020 at 7:54:38 PM

Chareles is right to a point - rural doesn't necessarily equal "white", at least not in the context of the Deep South. But if the argument is most white rural voters aren't voting for Republicans, I'm pretty sure that's just flat out contradicted by most data.

Its even more complicated as the number of potential voters is significantly less than the actual voters because Republicans go out of their way to make sure that rich white voters (or at least moderately well off middle class) are the only ones who can.

I'm hesitant to bring this up (yeah, I know this sounds like a Suspiciously Specific Denial), because I think (hope) Charles has changed his mind on this, but I'm never going to not remember that Charles supported or supports the electoral college out of a belief that rural voters deserve more of a voice in politics than urban ones.

Yes, because poor people who do not have much of an economy have a greater need. Mind you, I don't believe rural voters are white supremacist Trump voters but the poor and in desperate need working class of America.

The Electoral College failed America in 2016, though, because the Electors voted in Trump when its their job to not vote for a man who is manifestly unfit.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 21st 2020 at 7:56:39 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#328312: Sep 21st 2020 at 7:55:54 PM

Do I have to repeat "they keep mentioning plans for voting reform, and it's the Republicans that have been gutting the Voting Rights Act to enforce this"? Doing anything about state-level gerrymandering is impossible on a legislative level because it's the courts that are dealing with that, which is out of their control.

Yes, because poor people who do not have much of an economy have a greater need.

Even as someone from a working class background, this is ridiculous. Being poor does not mean that you should have disproportionate representation. It generally means there are more of you in general.

Edited by RainehDaze on Sep 21st 2020 at 3:56:48 PM

nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#328313: Sep 21st 2020 at 7:56:25 PM

Democrats do put out bills and legislation to help rural people, though. And the Electoral College is why the focus is on a handful of states. When's the last time a Democratic candidate went to Washington state?

https://joebiden.com/joes-vision/

He has a bunch of plans here. There are agendas for opioid/substance abuse, a specific plan for rural America, a plan for Central America, plans for working families, plans for manufacturing.

Edited by nova92 on Sep 21st 2020 at 7:59:45 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#328314: Sep 21st 2020 at 7:57:34 PM

Do I have to repeat "they keep mentioning plans for voting reform, and it's the Republicans that have been gutting the Voting Rights Act to enforce this"? Doing anything about state-level gerrymandering is impossible on a legislative level because it's the courts that are dealing with that, which is out of their control.

I haven't been responding primarily because I'm assuming you're agreeing with me that Republicans have destroyed any sense of democracy in rural states.

Even as someone from a working class background, this is ridiculous. Being poor does not mean that you should have disproportionate representation. It generally means there are more of you in general.

I think America should work toward economic and legal quality for all races as well as backgrounds.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 21st 2020 at 7:59:31 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#328315: Sep 21st 2020 at 8:00:10 PM

Yes, but you're then assigning blame to Democrats for not being in power to prevent the Republicans from making it harder to be elected. I doubt it would be competitive either way because of demographic shifts, but it's blaming the people in power for not doing things that they can't do.

I think America should work toward economic and legal quality for all races as well as backgrounds.

And? I think the point everyone drilled in the last time this discussion happened was: poor people are not just in rural states. The electoral college is useless at protecting the interests of the poor.

Edited by RainehDaze on Sep 21st 2020 at 4:01:22 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#328316: Sep 21st 2020 at 8:01:20 PM

Barrack Obama campaigned on a 50 state initiative and I felt that it should be the way it should be done by politicians. There's going to be no changes in America until Democrats make a concentrated effort to break the Republican power block in rural states.

You don't need to convince me they're better than Republicans. I just believe they have ceded the field for a lot of states to the GOP and that hurts us considerably.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 21st 2020 at 8:02:01 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#328317: Sep 21st 2020 at 8:01:48 PM

Edit: The Electoral College doesn't really help rural voters, though, and I take issue with the idea that rural voters somehow deserve greater representation in democracy than other voters. Why should some people get a greater say, simply because of where they live?


[up] Your initial statement was about Democrats leaving red state voters to die. So there are 2 options here. 1. Red states (not a monolith, but speaking in broad strokes here), are anti-democratic, which prevents Democrats from being elected to enact reforms. 2. They are representative of their voters, at which it's not Democrats' fault that the voters elect those Republicans.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#328318: Sep 21st 2020 at 8:01:54 PM

And I think that's a woeful misunderstanding of the costs of campaigning.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#328319: Sep 21st 2020 at 8:02:43 PM

Edit: The Electoral College doesn't really help rural voters, though, and I take issue with the idea that rural voters somehow deserve greater representation in democracy than other voters. Why should some people get a greater say, simply because of where they live?

I literally got banned because of the last Electoral College conversation.

I don't think this will go anywhere productive.

I'm out.

1. Red states (not a monolith, but speaking in broad strokes here), are anti-democratic, which prevents Democrats from being elected to enact reforms.

Yes, absolutely. Democracy in Red States have been gutted and the GOP uses it to wage war on freedoms at a federal level and secure their dictatorship.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 21st 2020 at 8:04:15 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#328320: Sep 21st 2020 at 8:05:19 PM

Democrats are campaigning on these things. The DLCC is making an effort to break supermajorities in Kansas, they're working to gain seats in West Virginia, Jaime Harrison, Mike Espy and Al Gross are running a great campaigns in South Carolina, Mississippi and Alaska for the Senate. But it's hard. There's bills in Congress about helping coal miners in Appalachia transition away from coal mining, bills to expand rural broadband access, etc.

Edit: Ugh, thread moved fast.


Edit: Okay, will drop Electoral College.

But why are you saying Democrats are leaving these people to die, though? The entire point about the Senate is that it is more difficult to elect enough Democrats to change these reforms. I don't get why you're blaming them for the structural hurdles in place.

Edited by nova92 on Sep 21st 2020 at 8:14:02 AM

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#328321: Sep 21st 2020 at 8:11:28 PM

Edit - Especially because I'm going to go to sleep. I think I should bow out of this discussion for now.

Edited by Hodor2 on Sep 21st 2020 at 10:14:35 AM

Alycus Since: Apr, 2018
#328322: Sep 21st 2020 at 8:17:36 PM

I will say though, I was looking at past Senate elections and was kinda mindblown that states like North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska and Arkansas had Democratic Senators within just 10 years ago. Yet nowadays Dems recapturing those states are now considered all but impossible.

nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#328323: Sep 21st 2020 at 8:33:39 PM

I do want to say that I agree with you on some points, @Charles. Democrats should be running the best race they can, everywhere, because you never know when an opening might come up. 50 state strategy was good, because a lot of states' Democratic parties have been struggling. A lot of the places they're winning now were unthinkable a few years ago. But the hurdles are still there and they're fighting an uphill battle.

[up] Democrats came within 5% of winning the Governor's race in South Dakota in 2018. Kentucky just last year elected a Democratic governor. Senators in those states, of course, are much much more difficult.

Edited by nova92 on Sep 21st 2020 at 8:35:48 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#328324: Sep 21st 2020 at 8:45:57 PM

A 50 state strategy only works with sufficient funding for it. The cost of running in every state is extraordinarily expensive.

nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#328325: Sep 21st 2020 at 8:55:37 PM

Not every race has to be funded to Amy McGrath levels. I think under Dean's 50 state strategy each state party got $10,000 a month. So $6 million a year would fund those parties and keep them from becoming obsolete. Could give better support to somewhat long-shot races in those states, try to pick up downballot row offices, which tend to be less partisan. etc.

Edited by nova92 on Sep 21st 2020 at 8:57:15 AM


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