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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Mmm. I am having a hard time tying anything I'd say to the specifics of U.S politics. The discussion of Incrementalism/Progress and the ever looming threat of fascism befits more the general politics thread, I think?
I mean besides the obvious "Hey, Trump's supporters do seem eager to literally shoot socialists so that is at least an incentive for progressives to vote"
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothesSomeone just juxtaposted incrementalism and progressivism as two different things, and I'm not sure that's true. Surely radicalism is the opposite of incrementalism? Both are "progress", just different rates of achieving it.
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."By that logic no ideology has even succeeded, because nobody has ever been able to stop blood running in the streets, the best that’s ever been achieved in human history is for there to be less blood.
Yes our goal should always be a society without harm, the impossibility of such a society shouldn’t stop us pushing forward regardless, but along the way we should celebrate our victories, while obviously not becoming complacent.
We need to combine our anger at society for not progressing fast enough with recognition of the fact that we are actually progressing.
I think there is a difference between imperfection and major problems. Systemic racism is still a powerful force, wages have stagnated and the rich have grown even more powerful, and most importantly Climate Change is bearing down upon us.
Incrementalism has manifestly failed, just because things are better does not mean that they're anywhere close to acceptable. And if this is the best that incrementalism can do then frankly it should be cast into the garbage bin of history.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 21st 2020 at 10:53:00 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangThing is the taxes don’t come from the New York government, the IRS collects them from the people who live within New York.
Now New York State could probably refuse to cooperate with the IRS when it comes to pursuing people who don’t pay their federal taxes, but I think that would be the limit of even the state’s power.
X3 The problem is that full steam ahead radicalism has an even worse track record, look at how well things turn out after revolutions, look at the history of so many political parties that lost because their promises weren't believed by the public.
Edited by Silasw on Sep 21st 2020 at 6:04:08 PM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranThe problem is that full steam ahead radicalism has an even worse track record, look at how well things turn out after revolutions, look at the history of so many political parties that lost because their promises weren't believed by the public.
Not really, revolutions have mixed results because they happen when a nation is falling apart and thus start from a lower point. Radicalism is far more than that. Radicals led the charge for black civil rights, radicalism spawned all benefits workers currently have, radicalism led to the New Deal, radicalism defeated slavery.
Radicalism has substantively changed society for the better, and it will be needed to stop the issues that plague us all.
You can't thinker around the edges when fighting Climate Change, you need to mobilize society to fight it.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 21st 2020 at 11:09:54 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Here's the issue: Faster, more radical change has already been told "no" for now. People didn't vote for a more radical candidate.
So unless you're asking people to launch an armed revolution, I don't really see an alternative to incremental change for now.
And that's actually something that really irks me about leftist influences like Shaun who went all in on condemning "electoralism" - they don't actually offer a solution of any kind. They're just armchair revolutarionies promoting voter apathy, often from a privileged position (Shaun, for example, is British, so he can afford talking about how he'd never vote for Biden because it's not his livelihood on the line).
Should you try and push politicians further left to to implement more progressive policies? Yes. But first you have to get those people in positions of power, otherwise all those ideas are just gonna land in the bin anyway.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 21st 2020 at 8:17:08 PM
We learn from history that we do not learn from historySure thing, but let us know when you get the votes mobilized and the people in place to do that. Until then, we have to scrape for every inch we can get. Sure, it sucks, but it's this or Trump. There is no other choice unless you feel like burning down the Western Hemisphere and calling that victory.
It's been fun.Voting for something that gets you closer to what you want will always have better results than not voting because you can't get exactly what you want.
If you burn the system down, there's no guarantee you'll come out on top from the ashes.
Edited by Fighteer on Sep 21st 2020 at 2:17:59 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Incrementalism worked out pretty well for feminism, despite all the blood flowing for that cause. Sometimes even because of it. Emily Davison throwing herself under a horse for the cause sure is a hell of a political statement to make.
Edited by Redmess on Sep 21st 2020 at 8:26:02 PM
Hope shines brightest in the darkest timesI know it's easy for me to say "be patient, justice will come in time". I'm a cis white guy; as hard as it is for me to watch Trump and his ilk doing this, I know it has to be a hundred or a thousand times harder for people in the groups the Republicans are trying to destroy. But we don't have a golden arrow right now. A one-and-done victory that fixes everything is impossible, even if we had all of Congress and the White House and the Supreme Court. That would go a hell of a long way toward fixing things and bringing the US to a state we can be less ashamed of, but we're not ever going to get the perfect storm. The best we can do is push forward and dig our heels in when the Republicans try to push us backwards. Right now, we'll be lucky if we can even do that; it's hanging on the consciences of four Republican Senators, and good God, if that isn't a terrifying sentence.
It's awful, and it's not fair, but that's what it is.
Edited by RedSavant on Sep 21st 2020 at 2:30:19 PM
It's been fun.
Thank you. That genuinely helped...
Incrementalism works because it's people being dragged kicking and screaming once inch forward. It's the bare minimum possible thing you could call success. Any less is status quo. It's settling for less, not for achieving what you want.
It's heel-dragging and postponing what we can do now until it no longer is feasible to ignore. And you don't even get a prize for saying "told you so".
Incremental change is the quantum of change. It's physically impossible to do less.
Edited by devak on Sep 21st 2020 at 8:32:09 PM
Here's the issue: Faster, more radical change has already been told "no" for now. People didn't vote for a more radical candidate.
So unless you're asking people to launch an armed revolution, I don't really see an alternative to incremental change for now.
Yes, that's why I support Biden and leftist entryism. So we can do something good now and lay the foundation of actual systemic change.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 21st 2020 at 11:32:45 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangThere's space between "do the bare minimum with gritted teeth" and "sign the Everything Is Fixed Forever Bill tomorrow". We don't currently have the luxury of picking any speed for progress greater than "holy shit the Republicans need to be stopped right now".
When the Democrats are in power, then we can start putting pressure on center-leaning members of the party and start pushing for more progressive ideas and dragging the window left. The problem is that we're currently up against a party that wants to close the window on anything left of Trump in entirety. We can't build anything lasting with them standing ready to sledgehammer every brick we place and dynamiting what's already there.
It's been fun.Yup, like i said begrudging acceptance. But no amount of talk will convince me that this isn't settling for 20th place. I get it's the only option, hence acceptance, but i also know it's just dressed up 20th place, hence begrudging. hell, there's been mention on this very thread of plenty of polls that show Democrats aren't excited about Biden, but are very excited about kicking out trump. Which in itself suggests that few really like Biden but nevertheless think it's what anyone else wants.

By that logic no ideology has even succeeded, because nobody has ever been able to stop blood running in the streets, the best that’s ever been achieved in human history is for there to be less blood.
Yes our goal should always be a society without harm, the impossibility of such a society shouldn’t stop us pushing forward regardless, but along the way we should celebrate our victories, while obviously not becoming complacent.
We need to combine our anger at society for not progressing fast enough with recognition of the fact that we are actually progressing.
Edited by Silasw on Sep 21st 2020 at 5:33:51 PM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran