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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#328201: Sep 21st 2020 at 10:32:13 AM

By that logic no ideology has even succeeded, because nobody has ever been able to stop blood running in the streets, the best that’s ever been achieved in human history is for there to be less blood.

Yes our goal should always be a society without harm, the impossibility of such a society shouldn’t stop us pushing forward regardless, but along the way we should celebrate our victories, while obviously not becoming complacent.

We need to combine our anger at society for not progressing fast enough with recognition of the fact that we are actually progressing.

Edited by Silasw on Sep 21st 2020 at 5:33:51 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#328202: Sep 21st 2020 at 10:37:33 AM

Mmm. I am having a hard time tying anything I'd say to the specifics of U.S politics. The discussion of Incrementalism/Progress and the ever looming threat of fascism befits more the general politics thread, I think?

I mean besides the obvious "Hey, Trump's supporters do seem eager to literally shoot socialists so that is at least an incentive for progressives to vote"

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#328204: Sep 21st 2020 at 10:42:17 AM

Someone just juxtaposted incrementalism and progressivism as two different things, and I'm not sure that's true. Surely radicalism is the opposite of incrementalism? Both are "progress", just different rates of achieving it.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#328205: Sep 21st 2020 at 10:42:25 AM

I do not think Trump has enough time left in his presidency to defund those cities, does he?

Assuming he loses the election of course then he will have all the time he needs.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#328206: Sep 21st 2020 at 10:46:06 AM

Right, progressivism is an endpoint on the ideology map, incrementalism is just the rate at which we arrive there. I often see radicalism contrasted with reformism rather than incrementalism though, although depending on which definition of radical one is using, it can be either or both.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#328207: Sep 21st 2020 at 10:49:45 AM

The rate at which something happens can oft be significant enough factor that it will change the effects something has as a whole. It certainly merits a distinction.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#328208: Sep 21st 2020 at 10:50:13 AM

> The Department of Justice is going to label New York City, Seattle, and Portland as "anarchist jurisdictions.

> It is a step towards denying federal funding to such cities.

This is most important take away from the article I think

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#328209: Sep 21st 2020 at 10:52:49 AM

By that logic no ideology has even succeeded, because nobody has ever been able to stop blood running in the streets, the best that’s ever been achieved in human history is for there to be less blood.

Yes our goal should always be a society without harm, the impossibility of such a society shouldn’t stop us pushing forward regardless, but along the way we should celebrate our victories, while obviously not becoming complacent.

We need to combine our anger at society for not progressing fast enough with recognition of the fact that we are actually progressing.

I think there is a difference between imperfection and major problems. Systemic racism is still a powerful force, wages have stagnated and the rich have grown even more powerful, and most importantly Climate Change is bearing down upon us.

Incrementalism has manifestly failed, just because things are better does not mean that they're anywhere close to acceptable. And if this is the best that incrementalism can do then frankly it should be cast into the garbage bin of history.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 21st 2020 at 10:53:00 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#328210: Sep 21st 2020 at 10:54:52 AM

[up][up] This is also the second time that Trump has tried to withhold federal funding. Which got rejected last time because, shockingly, it's not the president that controls funding.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#328211: Sep 21st 2020 at 10:57:21 AM

If they try to defund NYC, could NYC then try to refuse re-passing its taxes? I mean, I don't know much about how the budget works exactly, but surely NYC, of all cities, contributes more to the federal government than it takes, right?

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#328212: Sep 21st 2020 at 11:00:55 AM

Thing is the taxes don’t come from the New York government, the IRS collects them from the people who live within New York.

Now New York State could probably refuse to cooperate with the IRS when it comes to pursuing people who don’t pay their federal taxes, but I think that would be the limit of even the state’s power.

[up]X3 The problem is that full steam ahead radicalism has an even worse track record, look at how well things turn out after revolutions, look at the history of so many political parties that lost because their promises weren't believed by the public.

Edited by Silasw on Sep 21st 2020 at 6:04:08 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#328213: Sep 21st 2020 at 11:09:30 AM

The problem is that full steam ahead radicalism has an even worse track record, look at how well things turn out after revolutions, look at the history of so many political parties that lost because their promises weren't believed by the public.

Not really, revolutions have mixed results because they happen when a nation is falling apart and thus start from a lower point. Radicalism is far more than that. Radicals led the charge for black civil rights, radicalism spawned all benefits workers currently have, radicalism led to the New Deal, radicalism defeated slavery.

Radicalism has substantively changed society for the better, and it will be needed to stop the issues that plague us all.

You can't thinker around the edges when fighting Climate Change, you need to mobilize society to fight it.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 21st 2020 at 11:09:54 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#328214: Sep 21st 2020 at 11:15:35 AM

[up] Here's the issue: Faster, more radical change has already been told "no" for now. People didn't vote for a more radical candidate.

So unless you're asking people to launch an armed revolution, I don't really see an alternative to incremental change for now.

And that's actually something that really irks me about leftist influences like Shaun who went all in on condemning "electoralism" - they don't actually offer a solution of any kind. They're just armchair revolutarionies promoting voter apathy, often from a privileged position (Shaun, for example, is British, so he can afford talking about how he'd never vote for Biden because it's not his livelihood on the line).

Should you try and push politicians further left to to implement more progressive policies? Yes. But first you have to get those people in positions of power, otherwise all those ideas are just gonna land in the bin anyway.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 21st 2020 at 8:17:08 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#328215: Sep 21st 2020 at 11:16:56 AM

Sure thing, but let us know when you get the votes mobilized and the people in place to do that. Until then, we have to scrape for every inch we can get. Sure, it sucks, but it's this or Trump. There is no other choice unless you feel like burning down the Western Hemisphere and calling that victory.

It's been fun.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#328216: Sep 21st 2020 at 11:17:21 AM

Voting for something that gets you closer to what you want will always have better results than not voting because you can't get exactly what you want.

If you burn the system down, there's no guarantee you'll come out on top from the ashes.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 21st 2020 at 2:17:59 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#328217: Sep 21st 2020 at 11:22:20 AM

Incrementalism worked out pretty well for feminism, despite all the blood flowing for that cause. Sometimes even because of it. Emily Davison throwing herself under a horse for the cause sure is a hell of a political statement to make.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 21st 2020 at 8:26:02 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#328218: Sep 21st 2020 at 11:29:26 AM

I know it's easy for me to say "be patient, justice will come in time". I'm a cis white guy; as hard as it is for me to watch Trump and his ilk doing this, I know it has to be a hundred or a thousand times harder for people in the groups the Republicans are trying to destroy. But we don't have a golden arrow right now. A one-and-done victory that fixes everything is impossible, even if we had all of Congress and the White House and the Supreme Court. That would go a hell of a long way toward fixing things and bringing the US to a state we can be less ashamed of, but we're not ever going to get the perfect storm. The best we can do is push forward and dig our heels in when the Republicans try to push us backwards. Right now, we'll be lucky if we can even do that; it's hanging on the consciences of four Republican Senators, and good God, if that isn't a terrifying sentence.

It's awful, and it's not fair, but that's what it is.

Edited by RedSavant on Sep 21st 2020 at 2:30:19 PM

It's been fun.
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#328219: Sep 21st 2020 at 11:31:16 AM

[up] Thank you. That genuinely helped...

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
devak They call me.... Prophet Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
They call me.... Prophet
#328220: Sep 21st 2020 at 11:31:25 AM

Incrementalism works because it's people being dragged kicking and screaming once inch forward. It's the bare minimum possible thing you could call success. Any less is status quo. It's settling for less, not for achieving what you want.

It's heel-dragging and postponing what we can do now until it no longer is feasible to ignore. And you don't even get a prize for saying "told you so".

Incremental change is the quantum of change. It's physically impossible to do less.

Edited by devak on Sep 21st 2020 at 8:32:09 PM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#328221: Sep 21st 2020 at 11:32:03 AM

Here's the issue: Faster, more radical change has already been told "no" for now. People didn't vote for a more radical candidate.

So unless you're asking people to launch an armed revolution, I don't really see an alternative to incremental change for now.

Yes, that's why I support Biden and leftist entryism. So we can do something good now and lay the foundation of actual systemic change.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 21st 2020 at 11:32:45 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
devak They call me.... Prophet Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
They call me.... Prophet
#328222: Sep 21st 2020 at 11:34:26 AM

Actually there's a good word for it: tolerance. Begrudging acceptance. But i see no reason to be *happy* about "not being in last" or the alternative, "team 1935".

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#328223: Sep 21st 2020 at 11:38:52 AM

There's space between "do the bare minimum with gritted teeth" and "sign the Everything Is Fixed Forever Bill tomorrow". We don't currently have the luxury of picking any speed for progress greater than "holy shit the Republicans need to be stopped right now".

When the Democrats are in power, then we can start putting pressure on center-leaning members of the party and start pushing for more progressive ideas and dragging the window left. The problem is that we're currently up against a party that wants to close the window on anything left of Trump in entirety. We can't build anything lasting with them standing ready to sledgehammer every brick we place and dynamiting what's already there.

It's been fun.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#328224: Sep 21st 2020 at 11:39:32 AM

I see no reason that:

1. I can support Biden against Trump because Trump is a literal Nazi.

2. Be pissed at Biden for not being nearly as good an alternative.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
devak They call me.... Prophet Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
They call me.... Prophet
#328225: Sep 21st 2020 at 11:46:02 AM

Yup, like i said begrudging acceptance. But no amount of talk will convince me that this isn't settling for 20th place. I get it's the only option, hence acceptance, but i also know it's just dressed up 20th place, hence begrudging. hell, there's been mention on this very thread of plenty of polls that show Democrats aren't excited about Biden, but are very excited about kicking out trump. Which in itself suggests that few really like Biden but nevertheless think it's what anyone else wants.


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