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AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#328051: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:54:59 PM

I don't think Fighteer specifically causes this, this is an argument with multiple players that just keeps happening...and happening...and happening...and happening...and happ

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#328052: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:58:24 PM

Sanders or no Sanders, it is undeniable that the Democratic Party (and the American Left in general) is not monolithic in beliefs. The problems come when we factionalize ourselves and start excluding people because they have Wrongthink.

For example, people who believe that supporting the "public option" over an immediate shift to single-payer healthcare is a betrayal of all that is Good and True.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 19th 2020 at 9:59:36 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#328053: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:59:55 PM

Sen. Richard Blumenthal (CT) echoes Chuck Schumer, saying "nothing is off the table" if Republicans force through another Justice. [1]

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#328054: Sep 19th 2020 at 7:00:14 PM

Hard disagree. When "Wrongthink" can be anything from "slightly different doctrine on nuclear power" to "blatant racism or transphobia or whatever", there is no broad way to judge whether all factionalism is good or bad.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#328055: Sep 19th 2020 at 7:02:01 PM

This is a thing that is somewhat specific to america. In America I think you can make a solid claim that liberal means to the left of center, whereas in europe liberal generally means somewhat centrist. Not quite libertarian they do support some government regulation.

I best put it this way:

Let's say capitalism is a dog:

Socialist: it's rabid. Kill it!

Social Democrat: It's wild and you can't tame it. Don't need to kill it, muzzle it and put it on a tight leash.

Liberal: It's wild but you can tame it.

Libertarian: It's a good well trained boy.

Conservative: It's wild. That's good.

Somewhat of a simplification but that's the basic gist.

Edited by jjjj2 on Sep 19th 2020 at 10:05:47 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#328056: Sep 19th 2020 at 7:05:06 PM

For decades, in Canada, we had a party called the Progressive Conservatives. And it was one of the biggest three parties too. I think if there was a major political party in America called the Progressive Conservatives, people's heads would explode.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#328057: Sep 19th 2020 at 7:05:35 PM

From what I can tell the least charged definition for "liberal" tends to mean people who think voting is sufficient or the primary means of political change, and a broad belief in a social safety net and inclusivity, but also an acceptance if not advocacy for many neoliberal or classically liberal/libertarian policies in general (there's a reason the names overlap). It would be fair to describe most centrist Democrats as liberals, and indeed liberal would not be a bad term for many within the global center. Broadly status quo and favoring gradualist degrees of change since preserving the system is important.

Progressives are pretty nebulous, and the term largely arose because more specific and explicit terms like "socialist" are four-letter words in US politics. But from what I can tell they're a broad coalition of economic and social leftists, both reformist and radical, electoral and revolutionary—people who want a more dramatic leftward shift than what the centrists are willing to offer. Many of them believe that faith the system is insufficient to achieve the progress we need, and that other forms of activism are necessary. Most Bernie and Warren supporters are progressives. In places like Europe many of us would probably be known as Social Democrats or Democratic Socialists, since socialism itself has become a fairly broad tent accepting of electoralist politics.

However a lot of vocal online American leftists, including many of the Busters, have taken it to mean that all electoralism is inherently liberal. Either out of sheer contrarianism or because voting for even radically progressive legislation is inherently counterrevolutionary according to their heavily dogmatic interpretations of Marxist philosophy, which states that class dynamics render the kind of social change they want inherently inelectable. This can lead to the philosophy of democratic socialism being decried as fundamentally liberal and anti-Marxist even though many of its supports aim to abolish capitalism. This in spite of many self-described radicals believing that electoralism is a perfectly valid means of achieving broad social change, even if it should not be trusted to be the only means as liberals often do.

Depending on which definitions you're using, you can be both a progressive and a liberal, if you have moderately (not to confuse with centristly) leftist politics but rely primarily on electoralism above more direct action. However, the reason why progressives and liberals are opposed has a lot to do with the first definition; most progressives favor dramatically expanded welfare and safety nets, such as increased taxation on the rich and universal healthcare, whereas the liberals would probably favor a measure of private means.

Under the former, Bernie would be a radical, a progressive, and distinctly not a liberal; under the second definition, and I have seen accelerationism-friendly leftists complain about him and AOC as such, Bernie indeed be a progressive and a liberal sellout, because for all his posturing he would still rather act within the system instead of burning it completely to the ground. I agree that Fighteer and some others are being unfair to Sanders. He's more pragmatic and willing to work with what we have to stave off societal collapse than they're willing to give him credit for.

Personally, I identify unambiguously as a progressive, and am somewhat of a liberal insofar as I favor reformism to radicalism. However I have a dim view of certain people who fit under the first definition of liberal and who have too much trust in the system alone to fix things. But I don't have much sympathy for people who use the latter definition of liberal, because they're often dirtbaggers, brocialists, accelerationists, fundamentalist Marxists, clout-chasers, and other such types of people we don't want influencing leftist movements if we can help it.

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 20th 2020 at 6:23:00 AM

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#328058: Sep 19th 2020 at 7:14:43 PM

Tbh, as an American, I don't understand how a party calling itself "Progressive Conservatives" could exist without immediately imploding. It's like mixing oil and water.

Do not obey in advance.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#328059: Sep 19th 2020 at 7:40:05 PM

As I understand it, it actually worked out like a European liberal party or Silicon Valley libertarians (as opposed to the God, Guns and Hate crowd). Socially liberal, economically conservative.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#328060: Sep 19th 2020 at 7:42:19 PM

That sounds reasonable enough. A lot of progressives, including formerly myself before I was persuaded to adopt more democratic socialist stances, are emphatically more socially than economically left of center.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#328061: Sep 19th 2020 at 7:47:00 PM

There is definitely such a thing as conservative liberalism. Our majority party, the VVD, is conservative-liberal, for instance.

So yes, what "liberal" means can be a bit confusing.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#328062: Sep 19th 2020 at 7:48:18 PM

On a lighter note, I just found out about Sen. Chuck Grassley's Verified Twitter account, and I think we need to stop and marvel at the sheer insanity on display here.

If u lost ur pet pidgin /it’s dead in front yard my Iowa farm JUST DISCOVERED here r identifiers Right leg Blue [2020/3089/AU2020/SHE ///LEFT LEG GREEN BAND NO PRINTED INFO. Sorry for bad news

I assumed deer dead bc it was night and no carcas*

But in case of this pidgin i could actually pick up bird. No life whatsoever

* Presumably referring back to series of tweets from 2012 recounting his harrowing experience running into a deer.

Fred and I hit a deer on hiway 136 south of Dyersville. After I pulled fender rubbing on tire we continued to farm. Assume deer dead

U hv herad saying:"deer in headlight look". It is a frightening xperience when a real deer is there x

Some other selected tweets

Work on farm Fri. Burning piles of brush Windy Fire got out of control. Thank God for good naber He help get undr control PantsBurnLegWound x

Windsor Heights Dairy Queen is good place for u kno what x

Rx drug middlemen (PB Ms) r playing games ¬ complying w my &Sen Wyden’s insulin investigation We warned Cigna that it’d get a subpoena if no cooperation &also warned Optum. PB Ms get billions of taxpayers$$ &they must explain ridiculous price of insulin R PB Ms afraid of truth?? [1]

Im placing holds on 2 Trump Admin noms until I get reasons 4firing 2 agency watchdogs as required by law Not 1st time ive raised alarm when admins flout IG protection law Obama did same& got same earfull from me All I want is a reason 4 firing these ppl CHECKS&BALANCES [2]

ForestCityHS 300Students Iran Welfare Energy Guns/Schoolviolence budget$$ Immigration Minimumwage Cannibis LGBT #99countymeet x

Ive given thoughtful consideration to big 10 not hving football this season Considering all the rules we expect American ppl to follow 2b safe: masks/social distance etc Ive come to conclusion the decision was just plain wrong bc our fans r responsible 2follow rules PLAY FOOTBALL x

Also this:

Quit complaining abt my Twitter shorthand I know how to spell But Twitter limit is 120 characters [3] note 

Edited by megaeliz on Sep 19th 2020 at 1:56:47 PM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#328063: Sep 19th 2020 at 7:52:41 PM

Chuck Grassley's twitter account is bizarre.

Just send more than one tweet. Please stop with the abbreviations.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#328064: Sep 19th 2020 at 7:56:18 PM

That... must be a fake account, right? grin

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#328065: Sep 19th 2020 at 7:57:03 PM

Well, they said it was verified.

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#328066: Sep 19th 2020 at 8:56:54 PM

Ooookay.

Do not obey in advance.
Voltron64 Since: Jul, 2016
astrokitty Happiness is a cup of tea from Somewhere Out There Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Happiness is a cup of tea
#328068: Sep 19th 2020 at 9:37:33 PM

If I didn't know better I would've pinned some of those tweets as something from a bot.[lol]

Somebody once told me the world was macaroni, I took a bite out of a tree
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#328069: Sep 19th 2020 at 10:56:45 PM

I would like to note that a lot of far leftists hate "liberals" about as much as the right does. To them the word is strongly associated with merely paying lip service to progressive ideals and being beholden to corporate interests.

Edited by Clarste on Sep 19th 2020 at 10:57:18 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#328070: Sep 19th 2020 at 11:02:51 PM

T Here's a bit more to it than that, really. Conservative liberals, for instance, are the kind of liberals that are incredibly hard on disabled people, basically treating them like freeloaders. They also consistently defund education and the healthcare system in the name of austerity.

So yeah, I'm not exactly a huge fan of that kind of liberal.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#328071: Sep 19th 2020 at 11:08:41 PM

@Fighteer: Thats good enough for me, may I ask why Biden over Sanders because this is a position I do want to get more information on.

I'll chime in, because I'm another self-identified Progressive who preferred Biden to Sanders in the primary (and preferred Warren to both of them). I'll folder my response, though, so anyone who's not interested in reading another diatribe on not liking Bernie can skip over it more easily.

    Reasoning 

I had several issues with Sanders, starting with his economic tunnel vision. Sanders tends to hyper-focus on issues of economic justice, and act as if accomplishing those goals will naturally address other forms of inequality like falling dominoes - a sort of Leftist form of "trickle down" economics, except instead of money trickling down from the rich to the poor, it's civil rights trickling down from the privileged to minorities. Couple this with a lot of instances of Sanders sticking his foot in his mouth about "needing to set identity politics aside," and I had real concerns about Sanders being useless on social progress.

Secondly, I had major concerns about his effectiveness. Sanders has a terrible track record in terms of actual legislative accomplishments over a very long career in politics that gave me serious doubts about his ability to actually get anything done as President. While I'm in favor of a lot of the things he talks about, I have very little faith in his ability to actually accomplish any of his goals. Sanders is good at firing up a crowd, but he's damn near impotent at actual governance, not helped by his tendency to treat people who should be his allies like enemies, and elevate people who have no business being in the positions he gives them.

And that's really where Sanders plummeted behind Biden for me. Sanders has done a lot of harm to the Democrat brand by throwing fuel on the "just as bad as Republicans" fire. He has made numerous statements painting the Democrats as obstacles to progress as best, or outright enemies at worst, and stubbornly refuses to actually join the party he keeps trying to be appointed the leader of. He's driven a lot of people who should be voting Democrat to turn their backs on the party out of misguided disillusionment, and while he's been doing better since the primaries ended, it's really too little too late for me.

Biden has his fair share of issues, not limited to a spotty record of some distasteful beliefs and legislation, but he has shown consistent improvement across his career right up to the present day where he's running one of the most Leftist platforms a major party has ever put forward. He has a history of being highly effective at accomplishing goals and building alliances, and has a very generalist political outlook that doesn't leave me worried he'll neglect any issues that don't fall within his narrow field of interest or ignore any solutions that don't meet some exact vision he's put forward.

Sanders is an ideologue. Biden is a pragmatist. Even if I'm largely on board with Sanders' ideology, I have more faith in Biden to accomplish it.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#328072: Sep 19th 2020 at 11:33:03 PM

Today in "things Trump said", suggesting signing an executive order that Biden couldn't be president.

Just as a reminder what sort of fascist we're dealing with.

Voltron64 Since: Jul, 2016
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#328074: Sep 19th 2020 at 11:49:39 PM

...I'm almost starting to feel sorry for Trump. That tweet doesn't sound like him not realizing that he can't do that. It's not the kind of thing that comes from the Boss Zone. It sounds like him desperately flailing around as reality doesn't conform to his desires.

Edited by Ramidel on Sep 19th 2020 at 10:50:23 AM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#328075: Sep 19th 2020 at 11:51:56 PM

I would like to note that a lot of far leftists hate "liberals" about as much as the right does. To them the word is strongly associated with merely paying lip service to progressive ideals and being beholden to corporate interests.

Somebody should tell them how Weimar turned out then.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 19th 2020 at 8:52:13 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history

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