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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#328026: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:04:26 PM

What do you mean "identified as a liberal", because that has an extraordinarily vague definition. I identify as a Democrat, liberal, and progressive. My preference was Warren, and I supported Biden over Sanders, but by the time the primary got to Pennsylvania, my vote didn't matter because Biden had already won.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#328027: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:04:37 PM

[up][up][up]I think by the time primaries got to most of the people here who could vote in the primaries, Biden had already been decided on anyway, so technically, the answer is zero.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Sep 19th 2020 at 9:05:08 AM

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Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#328028: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:04:51 PM

Ross Perot, an independent from Texas both times. He did far better in 92 than 96, effectively losing half his votes between the two.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#328029: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:05:13 PM

[up]x5 I think you're just using multiple meanings of moderate at once and conflating a bunch of different groups: those swing voters who still exist, the centre of the democratic party, and the right of the democratic party.

Edited by RainehDaze on Sep 19th 2020 at 2:05:29 PM

Imca (Veteran)
#328030: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:05:16 PM

To be fair though they have also followed an extremely shitty president every time, Bush, Bush, and now hopefully Trump.

If anything its kind of appalling to me how quickly the American voters forget what the republicans did last time they were in power.

@Fighteer: Thats good enough for me, may I ask why Biden over Sanders because this is a position I do want to get more information on.

Edited by Imca on Sep 19th 2020 at 6:06:41 AM

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#328031: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:07:51 PM

If anything its kind of appalling to me how quickly the American voters forget what the republicans did last time they were in power.

I think you’re underestimating just how widespread the kind of privilege that allows people to just not care about those atrocities is.

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Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#328032: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:09:37 PM

People who vote Republican often support those atrocities. It's not all ignorance or apathy.

Edited by Clarste on Sep 19th 2020 at 6:10:30 AM

Imca (Veteran)
#328033: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:10:19 PM

No, I fully understand how rampant the privilege is its something I have to deal with constantly, its... still appalling. :/

[up] Exactly, but I do have to belive the people who DONT vote Dem are more out of prilage, at least the ones I have met are.

Err not vote rpublician, but not democrat either, like third parties and the like.

Edited by Imca on Sep 19th 2020 at 6:11:46 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#328034: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:10:29 PM

@Shaoken, it is possible that it was a lot less clear than the concise report on the radio, yes.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#328035: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:11:36 PM

[up][up][up]I figured we were talking about the non-voters, since I was under the impression what you mentioned would have been too obvious to be worth bringing up.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Sep 19th 2020 at 9:11:51 AM

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#328036: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:13:09 PM

@Imca: Because Sanders is a demagogue who spouts slogans to rile people up, plays coy with whether he's a Democrat or not, routinely condones abusive behavior by his followers, uses threats to get Democrats to follow his ill-conceived policy ideas, takes grandiose and exaggerated positions that are either counterfactual or seriously impractical, and generally behaves like a crotchety old man.

You could say many of these things about other politicians, but my primary beef is that I have studied economic theory as a layman, and Bernie got his out of a fortune cookie. He appeals to ignorance, not knowledge. Democrats can do better than aim at the lowest common denominator. That's what Republicans do.

Biden was sort of my default position in the primary: if I couldn't get the choice I wanted, he'd be the least likely to do something stupid.

Edit: The fact that "liberal" and "progressive" have become conflated with supporting Sanders reflects a deep illness in the Democratic Party that concerns me in the long term. In the short term, if we don't get Trump out, we're all fucked anyway.

Edit 2: Oh, and there's also the fact that Sanders was being promoted by Russia as a spoiler candidate in both 2016 and 2020. Now, I wouldn't necessarily hold that against him, but in context with everything else it's damning.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 19th 2020 at 9:19:58 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#328037: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:15:45 PM

[up]x6 I don't think it is just privilege, voters generally have short memories unless a party really screws up (like, say, collaborating with Nazi Germany or something).

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#328038: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:16:56 PM

[up]Still a kind of privilege, the specific flavor being “not being affected by not learning from the past.”

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Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#328039: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:18:18 PM

Bernie ran on a platform of "the Democrats suck" which is not exactly the best platform when you're running to be the nominee of the Democrats and the voters you're aiming for are the ones who probably like the Democrat party.

Imca (Veteran)
#328040: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:21:53 PM

Edit: The fact that "liberal" and "progressive" have become conflated with supporting Sanders reflects a deep illness in the Democratic Party that concerns me in the long term. In the short term, if we don't get Trump out, we're all fucked anyway.

What is the difference supposed to be? Sorry my grasp of english is kind of failing at that point.

[up][up] Or just not having to fear the consequences of any thing allowing them to stick to morals over results.

Edited by Imca on Sep 19th 2020 at 6:22:46 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#328041: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:23:19 PM

[up][up][up] Well, that goes for both sides, really. Should voters still hold the Democrats accountable for what Kennedy and Johnson did during the Vietnam war? At some point voters get over their outrage at their party and will move on to the next candidate.

And if a particular politician has become entirely unacceptable, they can always punish them by voting for another one.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 19th 2020 at 3:23:43 PM

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ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#328042: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:25:40 PM

[up]Hold them specifically accountable? No. Catch on to the warning signs if history is going to repeat? Ideally. Though I admit that those specific warning signs may be too obscure for me to blame anyone for missing...

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Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#328043: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:30:03 PM

I think there's also the issue that most people are low information voters when it comes to politics, and may simply not be aware of these historical patterns. Politicians out of office are generally quickly forgotten, even presidents. How often do you hear about Bush or Bill Clinton these days?

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#328044: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:32:39 PM

@Imca: There exists a mentality among certain folks — not all, but enough to be a problem — that if you believe in things like universal healthcare, a higher minimum wage, and so on, you must support Sanders. If you do not support Sanders, you are not a "true" progressive and therefore do not believe in those things. You must also believe in everything Sanders says if you are a true progressive, exactly as it is written. You are not allowed to have differences of opinion or consider nuance.

This mentality creates an artificial exclusion. It intentionally splits Democrats into "progressive" and "centrist" camps. If you're in the centrist camp, you think progressives are dangerously radical, deluded, and antagonistic; and if you're in the progressive camp, you think centrists might as well be Republicans for all the good they'll do.

I have progressive views on almost everything. However, I still believe that Bernie Sanders would make an awful President, because he refuses all semblance of nuance or compromise, and you can't have politics without nuance and compromise.

As for "liberal" vs. "progressive", that's basically semantics. The word "liberal" got demonized by the Right during the Clinton era, so now we use "progressive". They mean more or less the same thing.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 19th 2020 at 9:33:35 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#328045: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:39:06 PM

Man I come back here after a bit to get a break from dumb Busters and I get right back to the enlightened take of “Bernie is a demagogue” and I wonder why I didn’t come here for a few months. Good lord, Libs...

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#328046: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:40:16 PM

I'm with Kaos here. Are we seriously on this argument again?

[up][up] ...No, Progressive and Liberal are NOT the same thing.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Sep 19th 2020 at 9:41:14 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#328047: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:40:29 PM

[up][up][up] That split in the Democratic party is not entirely imaginary or unnatural, though. It comes from the US' two party systems, which tends to include various groups into one party who, under multiparty systems, would be different parties, and rather opposed to each other at that. The Democratic party is a bit of a chimera in that regard.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 19th 2020 at 3:40:44 PM

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Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#328048: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:40:40 PM

Thirded, it doesn't seem justified.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#328049: Sep 19th 2020 at 6:53:33 PM

Yeah I have to agree. Fighteer your hate for Bernie seems over the top at times.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid

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